Skip to comments.Archbishop Chaput: Democrats have ‘gotten worse’ on abortion because Catholics haven’t left
Posted on 10/24/2012 3:30:46 PM PDT by NYer
October 24, 2012 (HLIWorldWatch.org) - In a recent video interview with Catholic News Service, Archbishop Charles Chaput of Philadelphia said that the position of the Democrat Party on abortion has gotten worse over time because Catholics within the party havent taken a strong moral stand and shown a willingness to abandon the Democrat Party.
I think many of the Democrats have [taken] Democrat Catholic votes for granted because theyll go with them no matter what the party position might be on abortion, Archbishop Chaput said. Thats why the position of the Democrat Party has gotten worse, and worse, and worse as time goes on because Catholics havent abandoned them as theyve moved in that direction.
Chaput said that in the earliest days of the abortion debate in the United States, most people probably thought that the Republican Party wouldve easily embraced abortion, and that Democrats would have been the political party standing for the defense of life because of the large number of Catholics within the party.
Catholics have been historically part of the Democrat Party in great numbers, and I think really couldve stopped that great development movement if they tried, but they didnt in order to accommodate people from the other side of the issue, he said.
The Archbishop also said that you cant always trust the Republican Party to stand for the defense of life either.
You know you cant trust the Republicans to be pro-life 20 years from now. You cant let any party take your vote for granted, said Chaput.
Archbishop Chaput called on Catholics in the United States to put their Catholic identity ahead of their political party, and even their American citizenship, to stand united with the Churchs moral teaching opposing abortion.
Were Catholics before were Democrats. Were Catholics before were Republicans. Were even Catholics before were Americans because we know that God has a demand on us prior to any government demand on us, he said. And this has been the story of the martyrs through the centuries.
[Abortion] is a very serious issue that requires absolute adherence on the part of Catholics, the Archbishop said, and if we dont stand united on this issue were bound to failurenot only in the area of protecting unborn human life but in maintaining our religious freedom.
Including the bishops, who appear to have never read the Republican party platform before this election cycle, and who have refused to deny the Euchariast to pro-abortion politicians.
My aunt died a few years back at the age of 95.She was a devout Catholic...Mass every single day until,in her late 80’s,she was physically unable to do it anymore.We’d have spirited discussions about the fact that she always voted Rat.”Do you agree with homosexual marriage or abortion”,I’d ask.”No,I don’t” she’d reply.”Then why vote for Rats?”,I’d ask.”Because they give me my Social Security”.
Then how can they be catholic? How can you be pro abortion and be a catholic? Any catholics want to answer?
Certainly..... they are called cafeteria or smorgaasboard Catholics.
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I believe in the United States of America. But I don't believe in a representative congress -or in one man one vote -and I want to change the form of government to me being king and you being my minions. Am I an American? Hardly. Baptism does not a catholic make.
there must be some theological reason why Catholics do not get involved in campaigns. They discuss issues, but never are there for the battle.
I was raised a South Omaha Democrat. Think conservative democrat and when I became 18, I could no longer support a party that wasn’t in line with my values.
Granted, the Republican party has it’s challenges, but is more in line with my value system. My folks are die hard Catholics and to this day, vote ALMOST a straight Democrat ticket.
Hell, I have an aunt who is a nun and over a large order who thinks Obama’s is great. I have never been able to figure it out.
Believe it or not, it does!
"Roman Catholics, the largest U.S. church with a reported 69 million members, start counting baptized infants as members and often dont remove people until they die. Most membership surveys dont actually count whos in the pews on Sunday...."
....it is possible, for example, to be born Catholic, married Methodist, die Lutheran and still be listed as a member of the 1 billion-member Roman Catholic Church....
"...The Catholic understanding of membership is that a person becomes a member upon baptism and remains a member for life," Gautier said. "Whether you show up at church or not is not what determines whether you're a member."
-- from the thread When It Comes to Church Membership Numbers, the Devil's in the Details
Sure, they've adopted the Protestant doctrine of interpreting Scripture for themselves and become Protestants in all but name.
While 'Cafeteria Catholics' is what such folks are usually called they're just more non-Catholics who claim to be Christian. Just like the majority of those who claim to be Christian, they follow in the footsteps of Eve by interpreting His Word to suit themselves and in reality worship only their own, Most High and Holy Self.
So, if I say I’m a catholic but don’t believe in catholic doctrine, I can be catholic too?
I know the woman is now dead; but, maybe you should have asked her if she stopped getting her SS when Reagan was president. Or, did she not get her SS when GWBush was president. That might have made her think a bit more instead of just voting out of fear.
Don't be hasty, though, you might enjoy one of the tens of thousands of names non-Catholics have come up with. You might, for example, enjoy calling yourself an Emerging Homo or a Nondenominational Evangelical Fundamentalist more than you would enjoy pretending to be a Catholic.
But why stop with calling yourself something someone else already uses? Start your own church with a nice new name and maybe you can get enough followers to have your own mega church one of these days.
Something like, "Conservative Evangelical Pentecostal Self Interpreting Contraceptors", would probably draw a crowd so take you time and consider all the possibilities before you bother with pretending to be Catholic.
CEPSC? Nah, to start a church, you gotta have a snappy name, not something that sounds like a wino clearing his throat.
Something like, ‘Preachers Of Only Truth’?
There are many with that story. I always wonder why they think they won’t be going to hell. After all, isn’t that the bargain Judas made i.e. the lives of the innocent in exchange for money?
This Roman Catholic has never, ever even considered voting for a Democrat and has nothing to do with those that do.
It is like cheering for a team for some. Kennedy was Catholic, so they will vote Dem. Others view it as a debt to the poor, which the Democrats claim to champion, and an attack on some of the rich, which many Catholic feel comfortable doing.
All in all, it like an article that was posted not long ago. Abortion is not viewed as important as other issues.
The people that poll are Catholics, baptized, Catholics that identify as and know that they are Catholic, that is why they tell people that they are Catholic, regardless of the last time they attended church.
Protestants in regard to voting are a much less vetted category.
If you identify as a Christian but aren’t Catholic, then you are put into the Protestant category, even having never been baptized or having attended any church or ever having been a member or identified with a church.
She never noticed that when Republicans were in power, the checks kept coming?
Archbishop Chaput has made similar comments in the past. He talks as if there were no such thing as a Catholic bishop.
Since the late 1960s, pro-lifers have BEGGED and PLEADED with the bishops to get serious about abortion. The vast majority of the are still not serious. Only fifteen bishops in the entire country have made an explicit statement that Joe Biden should not receive Communion.
Chaput’s comments blaming the laity are as unseemly as if he were to repeatedly blame the laity for clerical sexual abuse.
I think that ship has pretty well left port quite a while ago. The only thing that we must do is commandeer it and bring it back.
I am of the opinion that evil in this world cannot prevail without the consent of the Church, which consist of God's people. That is why Satan works overtime on Christian individuals, especially of prominence, to cause them to enter into agreement with him, for it thus he gets his power to his evil work.
Sure, and every fat, loud mouthed drunk who claims to have been a Navy SEAL or Army Green Beret can legitimately self identify too and some dufus would accept it if he were trying to deceitfully prove a point......
People say:Why didnt Pope Pius excommunicated Hitler who, after all. had not attended mass since he was 17; who in fact, made little secret of his contempt for the effete religion of Christianity. Because he knew that faithful Christians in Germany were in the minority, and that to denounce Hitler would only strengthen Hitlers hand.
No, the Archbishop knows his brother bishops are cowards, that they are cowed by the fear of being abandoned by rich Catholic laymen who keep up the pretense because of their families. he knows that when Henry VIII confronted HIS bishops, they caved. Why the Separatists had so little respect for the Tudor Church in general and bishops in particular. It was always just a show.
LOL, weird post, fake Navy SEALS and Army Special Forces, and telling a pollster that you are Catholic?
I know about fake military vets having busted more than a few, but I’m not aware of people faking having been baptized into the Catholic church.
I have never personally met a person falsely claiming to have been baptized into the Catholic church, or falsely claiming to be counted by the church as Catholic, as far as I know.
I think we can call yours and absurd post.
It would have been been superfluous. Hitler, by his own actions, had clearly excommunicated himself, latae sententiae.
What most do not understand is that excommunication is not intended to be punitive. Its purpose is medicinal. It is meant to guide the recipient towards reconciliation and a return to communion with the Church.
Peace be with you
That is too easy a verdict. Many, most Catholic Germans thought of Hitler as a lapsed Catholic. He was nothing of the kind, but a heretic of the worse sort.
It's true! I just answered a telephone survey tonight and one of the questions was to identify "religious" leanings. The options were: Christian, Jewish, Muslim, no religious leanings or Other. When I answered, Christian, I was asked to identify what kind of Christian: Catholic, Protestant, Mormon or Other.
It is often the same thing here with the few Catholic bigots that attempt to categorize everyone who isn't a Catholic and who can barely stand to consider us as fellow Christians. The catch-all is "Protestant" even though many of us do NOT identify with the mainline Protestant denominations and actually prefer to be known as Christians, alone. We understand that the sign outside the church door does not define us but only that Gospel which is found in Holy Scripture and we know our true Shepherd, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Perhaps the real problem with Democrat-voting Catholics or other Christians, who not only vote for those opposed to their church's stated beliefs but who function as non-Christians every day of the week but Sunday, is they do not know the true Shepherd in their hearts but have a facade of religiosity and no desire for anything deeper. Those who know the Savior are indwelt with His Spirit and there is an internal urging that enables us to recognize what is right and true and good. This can be ignored, of course, but it IS there and there is no excuse.
No, you can't know that, in fact, there is a MUCH higher likelihood Republicans will remain pro-life than Democrats will forsake their pro-abortion plank and be pro-life. At least Republicans HAVE a pro-life plank in their platform. And, like the OP says, as long as Democrats can count on the robotic votes of Catholics, they will NEVER change that stance.
The country, as a whole, is becoming MORE pro-life and is now a majority view over those who identify as pro-choice. I credit the work of ALL pro-life groups who work tirelessly to educate people about the truth of abortion. Seeing that Americans are slowly changing their views on this, I think we can have a little comfort in believing that twenty years from now Republicans can still be trusted to defend the unborn. I'd like to hope the Democrat party will eventually come to its senses, but they are wrong on so MANY other things, they have a long way to go.
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Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.
Yet another wasted post about nothing.
Though the Scriptural purpose IS punitive and intended to cause repentance and reconciliation, in the case of blatant and grievous sin, the symbolic and personal purpose of PUBLIC Excommunication for people like Hitler, who engage in vile and evil actions is more for the benefit of others within the church than for that specific person. Even those outside of the Catholic Church would have benefited by such a public castigation. By failing to do this, Pope Pius wimped out and caused a scandal all its own in the aftermath. Here we are, sixty years later and it is STILL so.
The pope who who he was dealing with, and not just Hitler. He was nuncio for 13 years in Munich, and for a time nuncio to Germany. The heart of this Germany was Prussia, historically Protestant and since unification, strongly anti-Roman. Renouncing Hitler at any time would have put the MINORITY of German Catholics who opposed him at risk, by dividing a Catholic community among whom Hitler was very popular. After the war started, and into 1942, Germany was winning the war in Europe. The defeats at Stalingrad and El Alaimein did not turn things around, but only stopped his momentum. The savage allied bombings did not break the will of the Germans but made their attachment to the regime that much stronger. Nazi propoganda was very effective, not only in Germany but everywhere in occupied Europe. Pivotal in this was the presence and the speeches of Goerbbels. Try reading his speeches sometimes. They are very powerful, especially as Hitler no longer addressed the nation but was devoted to the prosecution of the war, and was presented as so doing. Now try to understasnd how hard it would have been to pass on any papal denunciation of Der Fuhrer, Broadcasts were jammed. All information from without wss treated as suspect. If it were believed, even then the message would have rejected by many. I mean, if Americans Catholics will not listento papal denunciations of abortion, what makes you think tat even Germany Catholics would have put the Church before their country?
What happens on the non-Catholic side? Are pro-abort Methodist/Baptist/whatever politicians denied communion?
Pete: You are Catholic. I am Catholic. Len Suzio is Catholic. Tom Scott was raised Catholic (don’t know if he still is). We’ve all been involved in a lot of campaigns. I no longer get involved for otherwise unacceptable candidates who might be a smidgeon better than their opponents but no more than a smidgeon. That is the avoidance of the near occasion of sin. That would be a theological issue.
Thanks for the answer and a history lesson, too! Now, to your last point, I think THAT is the whole point I was trying to make. Shouldn't ALL Christians put God's will and righteousness ahead of country loyalty? Wouldn't Pius' public excommunication of Hitler, which would include the reasons WHY he was to be dealt with this way, have forced Germany's Catholics to take a stand for justice and holiness? Isn't that what Church leaders are supposed to do? Put God above ALL else?
When German citizens started learning about the Jewish persecution and genocide that was going on by command of their own leaders, would it not have been the absolute BEST time for all Christians to stand together with the Jewish-German population and demand these actions to be stopped? What would have happened with the war had there been a united CHRISTIAN front opposed to the atrocities? Would Hitler have continued his "master plan" or just maybe would he have been forced to end it? By the Catholic Germans as well as the Pope standing by doing nothing, they gave tacit agreement for the acts to continue.
Sure Goebbels was a charismatic and convincing speaker - so was the devil - but for those steeped in Scripture and led by the Holy Spirit, his words would sound hollow and their eyes would have been opened to the devious designs and plans. The Germans to this day regret what they allowed to happen. Even people who were not even born when this all happened are STILL embarrassed by it. It will be a burden that they carry for decades more.
What's done is done, but we all must stand together to confront the Holocaust of our day - abortion - and we WILL answer to God if we stand back and do nothing to stop it. It seems every generation or two has just such challenges. For America it was religious liberty against loyalty to a king. Then it was slavery against the rights of ALL to live free. Today, it is abortion - the secret holocaust that has been swept under the rug of "women's rights" and "reproductive freedom". If we Christians stand by and allow this unspeakable evil to continue, if we Christians continue to elect lawmakers who assure its continuance, then we are NO different than slavers and murderers. There WILL be a judgment seat, there WILL be a reckoning, God WILL judge righteously.
I hope you have a good night. I'm signing off for today.
Well said, boatbums. Deuteronomy 21:1-9 tells us that God does not hold a community guilty for the immoral actions of an individual, if that community takes appropriate actions to separate themselves from said behavior (e.g. excommunication). The Catholic church has a Canon Law requiring the bishop to refuse communion to pro-abort politicians (Canon 915), but most bishops refuse to enforce the Canon against even the most egregious pro-death pols. What does Deuteronomy 28:15-66 say that God will do to the community that refuses to separate itself from the willfully immoral member?
Germany was somewhat more Catholic than we are, in numbers. But, again, many would not have seen the matter so clearly as you think, and many more were already cautious because boldest leaders had already been thrown into concentration camps. The plot in Army was much more powerful and better organized than the Church, yet it was hesitant to proceed. A denunciation of the regime by a foreign pope would have been portrayed as that of the puppet of foreign leaders. Note how hard it is to get the word out to a population ignorant of the failures our OUR regime, and consider how hard it would have been to spread the word in a country almost devoid of media not chained by the government. Only a totally stupid act, such as the destruction of Rome by the Germans MIGHT have stirred Catholic hearts, even by the strong rumor of it. But the ret
reating Germans did not, just as they did not destroy Paris.
You are amazed that the blind do not see?
Obama talks a good game. And she is confused by the ambiguous postures of the USCCB. They hammer Obamacare but then they denounce Ryans budget. The former is a statute, the latter a proposal, but it threatens funds on which they have become dependent. Typically short-sighted, they see the dagger in the left hand but are beguilded by the coin in the right.
Southern Baptist is the second largest denomination in America, second to the Catholic, but I don’t think that they do Communion, they are strongly pro-life though and voted 80% republican in 2008, while the Catholics voted 45% pro-life republican in that election.
I believe Baptists do celebrate communion, but let’s try the question this way:
Do Baptist preachers refuse baptism to pro-abortion politicians?
I wonder about the question here, on its foundation. How does one ex-communicate someone who is willingly not in communion?
Hitler long since stop coming to Mass or participating in any of the sacraments. It would be like telling someone they couldn’t go somewhere they never went or wanted to go.