Posted on 09/09/2012 3:08:47 PM PDT by CHRISTIAN DIARIST
Genesis 1:4 And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death.
Above is a summation of the doctrine of OSAS.
Whatever spirit leads you to believe that you do not need to live your faith and work out your salvation with fear and trembling is selling the exact same line the serpent was no matter how it's disguised.
Thanks for the suggestion. I’ve listened to the New Testament, the gospels several times. For anyone that hasn’t, biblegateway has them available online.
Romans, for me, is best read, it is a letter after all and in a very formal letter style of the time. It’s also somewhat complex in speaking to different audiences that, at the time, were in argument. It focuses on a moment in time in the history of the Church when Judaism and Christianity were both splitting and melding. It requires a great deal of context to understand.
Anyway, for audio alone, I found Matthew the most compelling. You can imagine it being told and re-told as a full story, as was done.
In video format, the best I have seen is Gospel of John:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Gospel-John-Henry-Cusick/dp/B0006Q93ZG
John has long been my favorite, but seeing it acted was something completely different. I can’t recommend it highly enough.
Cvengr, if I may return a recommendation: look at the New Testament without trying to make any one epistle define the whole or create a theology around it.
thanks for your reply...
bookmark
Why was Core slain if faith was all that mattered?
Why were the Jews told that their generation could not enter the promised land?Likewise, why was Moses told he couldn't enter the promised land since it's all about faith and not about behavior or walking the walk rather than just talking the talk?
Is THAT how you interpret that verse in Genesis? Because what the serpent was REALLY doing was telling Eve not to believe God. He said, "Did God really say...?" and she disobeyed God's words to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and Adam followed her in the SAME sin. How you think that ties into the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith and the eternal security of the child of God is a mystery. Certainly there are religions today that try to do the same thing - get people to not believe God's word. People like those who insist that faith in Jesus Christ is not how to be saved - in spite of the overwhelming Scriptures to the contrary - and tempt them to believe that somehow through their own good deeds, their works of righteousness, they can get to heaven. This totally negates the purpose of the cross.
I do not frustrate the grace of God, for if righteousness comes by the law (i.e.; being good) Christ died in vain, (Gal. 2:21)
I do not get why you keep accusing me of saying works do not matter. I have NEVER said that and I DO believe we should live out our faith, leading holy lives that honor God and bring Him glory. How many times do I have to say it before it sinks in? We are created UNTO good works which God has prepared for us. The difference is that I KNOW my works do NOT earn my salvation. I am saved because of what Christ did for me and not what I do for him.
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Titus 2:11-15)
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. (Titus 3:4-8)
So, tell me, is THIS something that the devil made up? Or is it what God has said so that we all can know the assurance that is ours because of his matchless grace? Seems to me that the devil would like nothing more than for people to reject grace in favor of their OWN merit and worth. That is probably why EVERY other religion in the world teaches that it is man's efforts that bring eternal reward - what man must do to bind himself back to God. But that is NOT Christianity, because it is what God has done to bind man back to Himself. Jesus paid it ALL. All to Him I owe, sin had left a crimson stain, HE washed me white as snow.
Well, if you can’t understand, “not by faith alone” the devil is in the background somewhere making sure you don’t understand what you read or don’t see how one thing relates to another.
Now, what was that about Moses and Core?
The Christian church most certainly DID teach justification by faith. This doctrine supports the truth that we are not saved by our works but by faith in Christ. And if we are saved by faith - are justified by faith - then it is not something we can lose by our works or by our sin. Though no one may have used the terminology OSAS, it nevertheless is Scripturally true. I've already given you a link that shows ECFs' views on justification by faith. Here is another http://www.apuritansmind.com/justification/the-early-church-and-justification-compiled-by-dr-c-matthew-mcmahon/. Some quotes from it are:
Jerome (347-420) on Romans 10:3: “God justifies by faith alone.” (Deus ex sola fide justificat). In Epistolam Ad Romanos, Caput X, v. 3, PL 30:692D.
Jerome (347-420): “He who with all his spirit has placed his faith in Christ, even if he die in sin, shall by his faith live forever.” Jacques Le Goff, The Birth of Purgatory, trans. Arthur Goldhammer (Chicago, Illinois: The University of Chicago Press, 1984), p. 61.
Pope Boniface to Caesarius: “[Phil. 1:29]–it appears obvious that our faith in Christ, like all good things, comes to individuals from the gift of divine grace and not from the power of human nature. We rejoice that your brotherhood perceived this truth in accordance with catholic faith, when a council of some bishops of Gaul was held. As you have indicated, they decided unanimously that our faith in Christ is conferred on men by the intervention of divine grace. They added that there is absolutely nothing good in God’s eyes that anyone can wish, begin, do, or complete without the grace of God, for as our Savior said, “Without me you can do nothing” [John 15:5]. For it is both a certainty and an article of catholic faith that in all good things, the greatest of which is faith, divine mercy intervenes for us when we are not yet willing [to believe], so that we might become willing; it remains in us when we are willing [to believe]; and it follows us so that we remain in faith.” William E. Klingshirn, trans., Caesarius of Arles: Life, Testament, Letters, Letter 20 – Pope Boniface to Caesarius; 2 (Liverpool: University Press, 1994), p. 125.
Cyril of Alexandria (412-444): “Seeing then that the law condemned sinners and sometimes imposed the supreme penalty on those who disregarded it and was in no way merciful, how was the appointment of a truly compassionate and merciful high priest not necessary for those on earth; one who would abrogate the curse, check the legal process, and free the sinners with forgiving grace and commands based on gentleness? ‘I,’ says the text, ‘I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins’ (Is. 43:25). For we are justified by faith, not by works of the law, as Scripture says (Gal. 2:16). By faith in whom, then, are we justified? Is it not in him who suffered death according to the flesh for our sake? Is it not in one Lord Jesus Christ? Against Nestorius in Norman Russell, Cyril of Alexandria (London: Rutledge, 2000), p. 165.
Hilary of Poitiers (c 315-67) on Matthew 20:7: “Wages cannot be considered as a gift, because they are due to work, but God has given free grace to all men by the justification of faith.” George Finch, A Sketch of the Romish Controversy (London: G. Norman, 1831), p. 230.
Basil of Caesarea (329-379): “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord, that Christ has been made by God for us righteousness, wisdom, justification, redemption. This is perfect and pure boasting in God, when one is not proud on account of his own righteousness but knows that he is indeed unworthy of the true righteousness and is (or has been) justified solely by faith in Christ. Chemnitz, Examination of the Council of Trent, Part 1, p. 505,
Ambrose (c. 339-97): “Thus I do not have the wherewithal to enable me to glory in my own works, I do not have the wherewithal to boast of myself, and so I will glory in Christ. I will not glory because I have been redeemed. I will not glory because I am free of sins, but because sins have been forgiven me. I will not glory because I am profitable or because anyone is profitable to me, but because Christ is an advocate in my behalf with the Father, because the blood of Christ has been poured out in my behalf.” FC, Vol. 65, Saint Ambrose, Seven Exegetical Works, Jacob and the Happy Life, Book 1, 6.21 (Washington, D.C.: The Catholic University of America Press, 1972), p. 133.
Ambrose (c. 339-97): “I have nothing, therefore, whereby I may glory in my works; I have nothing to boast of, and, therefore, I will glory in Christ. I will not glory because I am righteous, but because I am redeemed. I will not glory because I am free from sin, but because my sins are pardoned. I will not glory because I have done good to any one, or any one has done good to me, but because Christ is my advocate with the Father, and because Christ’s blood was shed for me.” George Finch, A Sketch of the Romish Controversy (London: G. Norman, 1831), p. 220.
Ambrose (c. 339-97): “Therefore let no one boast of his works, because no one can be justified by his works; but he who is just receives it as a gift, because he is justified by the washing of regeneration. It is faith, therefore, which delivers us by the blood of Christ, because blessed is he whose sins are forgiven, and to whom pardon is granted.” George Finch, A Sketch of the Romish Controversy (London: G. Norman, 1831), p. 220.
Augustine (354-430): “But what about the person who does no work (Rom 4:5)? Think here of some godless sinner, who has no good works to show. What of him or her? What if such a person comes to believe in God who justifies the impious? People like that are impious because they accomplish nothing good; they may seem to do good things, but their actions cannot truly be called good, because performed without faith. But when someone believes in him who justifies the impious, that faith is reckoned as justice to the believer, as David too declares that person blessed whom God has accepted and endowed with righteousness, independently of any righteous actions (Rom 4:5-6). What righteousness is this? The righteousness of faith, preceded by no good works, but with good works as its consequence.” John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., WSA, Part 1, Vol. 11, trans. Maria Boulding, O.S.B., Expositions of the Psalms 1-32, Exposition 2 of Psalm 31, ¡±7 (Hyde Park: New City Press, 2000), p. 370.
One piece that I think is quite relevant here in the discussion of what the early church did or did not believe is that we can look at the books of the New Testament, in the order of when they were written and it can help us understand how the Apostles interpreted the writings of the earlier books. "Galatians is widely thought to be the earliest New Testament document or one of the earliest. And Paul’s letters circulated widely early on and were highly regarded even before the apostolic generation came to a close (Colossians 4:16, 2 Peter 3:15-16, etc.). If somebody like Luke or John wrote fifteen, thirty, or more years after Galatians was written, then we can take what he wrote as an indication of how he interpreted Galatians or would have interpreted it if he’d read it (assuming apostolic unity, which conservative Catholics and Evangelicals do). It’s not as though we have to wait until the patristic era to get some idea of how a book like Galatians was being interpreted early on. A portion of the New Testament can be a line of evidence as to how another portion of the New Testament was being interpreted. What does Acts or the gospel of John, for example, suggest about how Galatians was interpreted early on? Or how do Paul's later letters suggest that an earlier letter, like Galatians, should be read?" (from http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2009/12/how-was-john-35-interpreted-prior-to.html)
This demonstrates to me that we can go to the Scriptures - since they are the Divinely-inspired words of God - to know all about the doctrines that the early Christians believed. They WERE being taught directly by the Apostles or their direct disciples, and this, to me, gives far more weight to what is taught than the writings of theologians centuries afterward. Scripture IS our authority. The Christian church is supposed to be the supporter and buttress of the truth - but, unless their teachings are confirmed by Scripture, they do not take the place OF Scripture. They cannot supersede God's word.
I’m sorry again, but selecting quotes according with yours and others opinions are not proving the Church teaches or ever taught sola fide or OSAS as these are not from Christ through his Apostles and not in Sacred Scripture.
Some folks seem to go so far as to make St. Augustine the whole of teaching of Christ’s Church. But no individual is.
Some of your quotes even have severe deficiencies in making the point you wish, but we can trade quotes if you wish:
“The remission of sins, therefore, is granted alike to all through baptism: but the grace of the Spirit is proportional to the faith and previous purification. Now, indeed, we receive the first fruits of the Holy Spirit through baptism, and the second birth is for us the beginning and seal and security and illumination s of another life. It behooves as, then, with all our strength to steadfastly keep ourselves pure from filthy works, that we may not, like the dog returning to his vomit, make ourselves again the slaves of sin. For faith apart from works is dead, and so likewise are works apart from faith. For the true faith is attested by works.” John of Damascus, On the Orthodox Faith, 4:9 (A.D. 743).
“But some think as if God were under a necessity of bestowing even on the unworthy, what He has engaged (to give); and they turn His liberality into slavery. But if it is of necessity that God grants us the symbol of death, then He does so unwilling. But who permits a gift to be permanently retained which he has granted unwillingly? For do not many afterward fall out of (grace)? Is not this gift taken away from many?” Tertullian, On Repentance, 6 (A.D. 204).
“Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time.” Didache, 16 (A.D. 90).
“It is the Spirit then which is in God, and not we viewed in our own selves; and as we are sons and gods because of the Word in us, so we shall be in the Son and in the Father, and we shall be accounted to have become one in Son and in Father, because that that Spirit is in us, which is in the Word which is in the Father. When then a man falls from the Spirit for any wickedness, if he repent upon his fall, the grace remains irrevocably to such as are willing; otherwise he who has fallen is no longer in God (because that Holy Spirit and Paraclete which is in God has deserted him), but the sinner shall be in him to whom he has subjected himself, as took place in Saul’s instance; for the Spirit of God departed from him and an evil spirit was afflicting him.” Athanasius, Discourse Against the Arians, 3:25 (A.D. 362).
I am addressing the relevant questions asked of me, but you have had ones asked of you that you ignored and only threw out new ones. We already had a discussion about the Sin of Core several months ago and I disagreed with your assertion that it is speaking about the Catholic Church of today and ALL Christians having to submit to their authority. You also ignored the passage in I Peter 2:4-5 that says:
As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him - you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
So, trying to mesh the sin of Core who refused the authority of Moses - one that God established for the Israelites as their leader to the Promised Land - with the truth that there no longer is a need for a special priest class in the church is an error - one which you never even acknowledged.
As for the Jews not entering into the Promised Land, I already addressed that HERE as a matter of fact. We were discussing Romans 11 that speaks about why the natural branches (the Jews) were cut off because of unbelief and the wild branches (Gentiles) were grafted into the root which is Christ. Romans 11 speak about the Israelites who did not make it to the Promised Land, verse 20 says:
But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.
Moses also was only allowed to look at that land of promise and he was barred from entering in because of his disobedience which came from lack of faith. We can go back to Numbers 20 to find that Moses was irritated and angry - probably old and tired, too - he couldn't take much more in his own strength. And when God told him to "speak" to the rock to supply water for the people, he instead hit it twice. Barnes' Notes on the Bible says this:
In Numbers 20, we read:
Now there was no water for the community, and the people gathered in opposition to Moses and Aaron. They quarreled with Moses and said, “If only we had died when our brothers fell dead before the Lord! Why did you bring the Lord’s community into this wilderness, that we and our livestock should die here? Why did you bring us up out of Egypt to this terrible place? It has no grain or figs, grapevines or pomegranates. And there is no water to drink!” Moses and Aaron went from the assembly to the entrance to the tent of meeting and fell facedown, and the glory of the Lord appeared to them. 7The Lord said to Moses, “Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink.” So Moses took the staff from the Lord’s presence, just as he commanded him. He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, “Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?” Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank. But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.” (Numbers 20:2-12)
Moses' faith was strained and his actions showed it. We are not much different. But Moses, not being allowed to enter the land did not mean he went to hell when he died. His consequence was not being allowed to enter the land, but we know he went to heaven because Jesus met with him on the Mount of Transfiguration, remember? Moses was also listed in the Faith Hall of Fame we read in Hebrews 11:24-28.
We WILL suffer consequences for our actions, too, but it does not mean we will go to hell. If we have been born again into the family of God through faith in Christ, we will NEVER be condemned. That is the assurance we have from God's own word.
It is getting REAL late, so I will sign off for now. If you are still up, have a good night.
You've shown that you can post Scripture to support your opinion as long as people will play along and ignore those two facts but you have yet to explain why someone should ignore clear Scripture and accept your personal interpretation of select verses. Beyond even that, by going in a circles and by trying to dodge one issue you've backed into several others. For example, you say folks not going to Hell will still suffer the consequences of their actions, so do you accept that Purgatory exists or do you really just say people suffer the consequences of their actions try and avoid admitting that the doctrine of OSAS encourages people to continue in any sinful behavior they enjoy? So, magic words and OSAS go hand in hand since you ignore the Scripture about not by faith alone? Hand in hand as in saying the right magic words is all that matters the same way the Wicca crowd believe saying the proper incantations keeps them out of harms way? Wouldn't it make more sense to take what the Scripture says at face value and admit that we have to put our faith into action or else it's dead faith ?
I KNOW and all Catholics KNOW that works do not earn salvation in any way, shape, or form but you're too hung up on your preconceptions to listen to what I and others are telling you or even read carefully what you yourself are posting. Works and faith are not two different things, they're aspects of the same thing which is why Matthew tells us, "By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?".
Even beyond what one of the Apostles wrote, you either believe what Jesus Christ said or you believe Jesus Christ is a liar, and Christ said that those who bear no fruit will be cut off and cast into the fire. It's just like, "this is my body", it's there, it's explicit, and if you don't believe it then you need to stop pretending you base everything you believe on Scripture and admit you rely on the Lego Block Method of Scripture Interpretation to support whatever you want to believe.
Feel free to continue ignoring the fact that faith and works are one and the same. That makes it easy to just cruise on down the freeway of love in your pink Cadillac. It's a busy freeway with lots of opportunity to entertain yourself and you can find plenty of other folks who agree with you. It's all very easy as long as you dismiss any thought of living like you're actually following Christ. Join the majority who refuse to let a little things like bearing their cross come between them and a good time or making a buck. When it's all forgiven in advance and OSAS frees you from all responsibility trying to live like a Christian is just a hassle, right?
I gave you quotes because as I said, “we can trade quotes if you wish.”
Second, the doctrines of the Church *can* be found in Holy Scripture - you haven’t answered the very clear ones including Jesus which completely destroy OSAS and sola fide.
You can look to the Councils to see how these issues, which are mostly not at all new, are settled by the Church.
If you wish to stick with OSAS and with scripture, you have the very clear scripture disputing it.
As an appeal to logic, if OSAS and sola fide were the teaching of the Church, the reformers would not have had to oppose the Church to invent it and work it into their various confessions written to differentiate themselves from the teachings of the Church.
In short, if the Church taught what you claim, there would never have a been a ‘reforming’ of what the Church taught. This short history of protestantism disproves your point as well.
Cardinal Newman: “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.”
An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith by St John Damascene (c. 7th Century A.D.) . St. John is a Doctor of the Church, and this work is a treasured antiquity of Christianity, an encyclopedic summary of the dogmatic writings of the Early Church Fathers.
When I said we suffer "consequences" for our rebellion and sin once we are born again it has NOTHING at all to do with going to hell OR the unscriptural non-place called "Purgatory". In fact, the book of Hebrews as well as others say that we are "chastised" and "disciplined" as true children of God. It also says that if we DO NOT experience this chastisement, we aren't legitimate children of God. Obviously (to me) this cannot be talking about what happens after we die, so it must be speaking about both troubles, sickness, loss of fellowship and loss of rewards here on earth. We will also have a loss of reward in Heaven as described in I Corinthians at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
You said:
I KNOW and all Catholics KNOW that works do not earn salvation in any way, shape, or form but you're too hung up on your preconceptions to listen to what I and others are telling you or even read carefully what you yourself are posting. Works and faith are not two different things, they're aspects of the same thing which is why Matthew tells us, "By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?".
This won't surprise you, but I think it is you all that are "hung up on your preconceptions". Do you listen to what YOU are saying? In the same paragraph, you contradict yourself. You say, "works do not earn salvation in any way, shape, or form", but then you contradict Scripture by saying that works and faith "are aspects of the same thing". To coin a phrase from Harry Potter's Hagrid (seeing as you seem to like it), "Codswallow!". Maybe you aren't familiar with Romans 11:6, "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." As Barnes' explains:
So, God disagrees with the accursed gospel that says we are saved by grace plus works or that they are "not two different things". According to God they are two OPPOSITES. Either something is unearned or it is earned. Either it is merited or unmerited, deserved or undeserved - it can't be both. Once this central tenet of the Christian faith is understood - justification by faith - then we can look at those other verses that only seem to dispute that doctrine. So, when Jesus talked about each branch producing fruit, or judging by the fruit, he cannot be talking about what happens to unfruitful branches in the context of faith PLUS works required for salvation. He is saying just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions. When James talks about faith without works is dead, he is also talking about others being able to know we have faith by our actions. That is the context in James 2. Go back and read the whole chapter sometime. A "dead" faith is one that produces no fruit, it is a useless faith. New Christians need to be taught this important lesson, they should, by their lives, demonstrate a changed, good fruit kind of life, otherwise they have a dead faith. It doesn't say the person is dead or going to hell, but that their faith is unfruitful. Why would God make salvation based on our works, if he already made it based on grace and on faith in that grace?
By no means does this doctrine "encourage people to continue in any sinful behavior they enjoy". Far from it. It is saying that a genuine saving faith results in a changed life, a new spirit nature, one that is PROVED by good works. Paul said in Galations 2:17-21
“But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker. “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
That's what I was talking about before. Some theologians worried that telling people they are justified by faith and not by works would encourage sinful lives and they probably had plenty among themselves who had not experienced the new birth and who were led by the Spirit of God. So they perverted the Gospel of grace through faith and preached an accursed one that said going to heaven was by works - merit, being worthy, making yourself holy. Rather than trusting that God WOULD create within the heart a changed, Christ-like nature that earnestly desired to please God, they judged it was better to not let anyone think they could have an assurance of salvation. This was the SAME kind of thing Paul had to deal with from the Judaizers and, in response, wrote to the Galatians disputing the false teaching.
It is sad to see that their insipid ideas have never been stamped out - and no wonder, ALL manmade religions have that aspect in common - what we do FOR God, instead of what God does FOR us. I cannot convince someone to accept the Gospel - that is the work of the Holy Spirit who touches the heart of those who earnestly seek to know the truth. Until you get it that faith and works are NOT the same thing, you will continue down the "tollway of love" in whatever vehicle of your choice and you will pay the toll week by week, month by month, year by year, never truly living the life of grace and being able to take the exit ramp to heaven when the trip of life is done. Instead it will be busted GPS that keeps you driving around in circles never knowing when or if there is an exit ramp in the trip. Living the life of faith in God's grace is taking up the cross and following Christ and realizing He said His load is easy and His burden is light and we WILL find rest for our souls.
Boatbums says, "It is sad to see that their insipid ideas have never been stamped out . . ."
So a clear, direct statement by Jesus Christ is insipid and part of a man made religion?
"Once this central tenet of the Christian faith is understood - justification by faith - then we can look at those other verses that only seem to dispute that doctrine."
Faith without works is dead, so OSAS and "Faith Alone" are both just marketing slogans for the Protestant and Protestant derived heresies that say either or both are correct.
It's that simple and those who refuse to accept that simple truth are destined to be among those who hear, "I never knew you". That's what being "cut off" means, someone who was grafted in is later cut off. That's as clear as it gets and all no matter what sort of long winded misuse and misinterpretation of other Scripture anyone comes up with it doesn't change a clear direct statement by Jesus Christ Himself.
You have an insipid habit of twisting what I say. Still ignoring all the Scriptures that clearly say we are justified by faith, I see?
Faith without works is dead, so OSAS and "Faith Alone" are both just marketing slogans for the Protestant and Protestant derived heresies that say either or both are correct.
Marketing slogans of heresies? More like a failure of some to grasp what the word "GRACE" actually means. Romans 11:6 - Another verse you ignore. You claim faith and works mean the same thing. Yet Scripture repeatedly says that we are saved by grace APART from works and that it is faith that justifies NOT our works. Could it be that you are unable to let go of the personal pride that goes along with the false and accursed gospel that boast in ones works that make him deserving of eternal life?
It's that simple and those who refuse to accept that simple truth are destined to be among those who hear, "I never knew you". That's what being "cut off" means, someone who was grafted in is later cut off. That's as clear as it gets and all no matter what sort of long winded misuse and misinterpretation of other Scripture anyone comes up with it doesn't change a clear direct statement by Jesus Christ Himself.
I agree and people that believe like you do will be the most surprised of all! "Lord, Lord, we did all these wondrous works in your name, look at all the good deeds we did, look at all the times we went to church, look at all the money we gave, look, look at me...!" And Jesus says, "Depart from me, I NEVER knew you." Not, "I once knew you but you failed to be good enough to deserve to be in heaven with me." But, "I never knew you." AKA, "You never were mine." Who's misreading Scripture here?
When Jesus is teaching using "parables", you have to pay attention to the underlying message and not get hung up so much on every word. When he spoke about natural branches on the olive tree, he is talking about the Jewish people and how those who persist in UNBELIEF will be cut off. The Gentiles - the "wild" branches, can be grafted into the root stock by faith and all the branches are "purged" - which is the idea of pruning, dead-heading, so that, through care of the gardener, the tree produces more fruit. The idea is always about being productive, bearing fruit. Like our Father in heaven chastising us, disciplining us to conform us to the image of Christ. A branch that is grafted in would not have been grafted in unless it was right for the tree. What matters is faith - we are united to Him by faith. It is faith, dependence on the root (Jesus) that we get all our strength and it is Him that sustains us. I know you aren't a fan of what you call "long winded" responses, but I think Barnes' Commentary adds this to our conversation about the John 15:2 passage:
He taketh away - The vine-dresser cuts it off. God removes such in various ways:
1. by the discipline of the church.
2. by suffering them to fall into temptation.
3. by persecution and tribulation, by the deceitfulness of riches, and by the cares of the world Matthew 13:21-22; by suffering the man to be placed in such circumstances as Judas, Achan, and Ananias were such as to show what they were, to bring their characters fairly out, and to let it be seen that they had no true love to God.
4. by death, for God has power thus at any moment to remove unprofitable branches from the church.
God purifies all true Christians so that they may be more useful. He takes away that which hindered their usefulness; teaches them; quickens them; revives them; makes them more pure in motive and in life. This he does by the regular influences of his Spirit in sanctifying them, purifying their motives, teaching them the beauty of holiness, and inducing them to devote themselves more to him. He does it by taking away what opposes their usefulness, however much they may be attached to it, or however painful to part with it; as a vine-dresser will often feel himself compelled to lop off a branch that is large, apparently thrifty, and handsome, but which bears no fruit, and which shades or injures those which do. So God often takes away the property of his people, their children, or other idols. He removes the objects which bind their affections, and which render them inactive. He takes away the things around man, as he did the valued gourds of Jonah Jon 4:5-11, so that he may feel his dependence, and live more to the honor of God, and bring forth more proof of humble and active piety.
Let me ask you this since it seems to me that you might either presume I am not a real Christian, since I am not a Catholic anymore, or I am a "carnal" Christian who lives like the devil and brags about being saved anyway...Is it possible in your view that a person can be Christian who tries to live a life that honors the Lord and who strives to be the woman He created her to be, yet, who believes that she IS saved by grace through faith alone?
Real Christians DO have active, fruit-bearing lives of faith and they live like this because it is part of the new nature indwelled by the Holy Spirit. We don't need to have a check-off list to keep track of all our sins so that we do the right "penance" and don't miss anything. We don't have a list of all our good works, deeds, and merits so that we keep the balance in check on that scale of God's justice and so we can have some semblance of an okay feeling that we are in a "state of grace" at all times lest we get hit by a bus crossing the street. And it is simply because we are promised by God that we CAN know we have eternal life when we receive Christ as Savior. It is a transaction, of sorts, God offers to us the gift of eternal life and we receive that gift by faith. What comes after that is living in Christ, having our father tenderly care for us, teaching us, leading us, sanctifying us, disciplining us, forgiving us and assuring us that he will NEVER leave us or forsake us but will complete the journey with us and we will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.
boatbums says: When he spoke about natural branches on the olive tree, he is talking about the Jewish people and how those who persist in UNBELIEF will be cut off.
Jesus Christ: Luke 6:46 "And why call you me, Lord, Lord; and do not the things which I say?"Christ doesn't mention unbelief as separate from the things He says we are to do so your assumption directly contradicts Jesus Christ Himself. In Christ there is neither Jew or Gentile so those who are grafted in are not different than the Jews who were an original part of the vine.
Since you're obviously quite comfortable directly contradicting Jesus Christ Himself, fine, knock yourself. Argue that what Christ Himself clearly and directly said doesn't mean squat compared to your personal interpretation of it all you like.
>Judas was never saved from the start.
You mean the same Judas who per Luke 10:9 ...
... did more spectacular miracles than most Christians in history was never saved?
Wow, you’re a little late to the party, eh?
I think I recall apologizing for stepping into a useless discussion about Judas, but maybe you did not see that comment of mine.
I’m not sure how Luke 10:9 “proves” that Judas was saved, as it is part of a general message from Jesus to His dozens of disciples as He sent them out, and it does not mention Judas’ name or declare that Judas “did more spectacular miracles than most Christians in history.”
Regardless, you might also recall the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”
Those people are stupid
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