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To: blasater1960

“A) He didnt perform any of the messianic tasks that would be exhaustive and conclusive to him. Example: Rebuilding the Temple, World Peace, Restoration of the Priesthood, Restoring the Jewish people to Torah Worship, Universal Knowledge of G-d, Restoring the lost tribes, Restoration of sacrifices.”


The Messiah is cut off, and the end thereof is with a flood. A flood, in the prophetic sense, would mean an army. This was fulfilled with the destruction of the Jewish Temple which had fallen so far into apostasy that not even the High Priest was legitimate.

Dan 9:24-27 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (25) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


“B) Not one verse in all of Tanakh (OT) does it say the Law will end and be replaced by a “law of christ”

C) Not one verse in all of Tanakh does it say that messiah will fulfill the law on our behalf (thus ending the law)”


He is offered as a “sin offering” to bear the iniquities of many.

Isa 53:1-12 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? (2) For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. (3) He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. (4) Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. (5) But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. (6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (7) He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. (8) He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. (9) And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. (10) Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (11) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. (12) Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


D) Not one verse in all of Tanakh does it say that Human Sacrifice or Human vicarious atonement is acceptable to G-d, on the contrary, G-d says he hates it and it is an abomination to him, something that never entered His mind.”


Isaiah 53


F) The Christian versions of the Tanakh, the LXX (Jews only translated the first 5 books) and modern translations do not accurately render the Hebrew Masoretic texts. Example: Ps 22, does not say “pierced his hands and feet” Ka’ari, in the hebrew means, “like a Lion” they surround my hands and feet (same language as other parts of 22) Likewise Is 53 has many errors, Is 7:14, does not say “virgin”.

The Hebrew word translated to virgin is Almah, which refers to an unmarried young maiden or girl. Since this was before the 1960s, such a girl is always a virgin. There is no instance of it being used of a young woman who is not a virgin, and is always used of young girls, damsels, maidens, or translated virgin. Jewish commentaries prior to Jesus had the same understanding. Obviously, since, a girl getting pregnant the normal way would not be much of a sign.

As an example (the word Almah is bracketed):

So 1:3
Because of the savour of thy good ointments thy name is as ointment poured forth, therefore do the [virgins] love thee.

So 6:8
There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and [virgins] without number.

If it was a married woman or a non-virgin, there are other words for woman that are more appropriate to use.

For Ka’ari, it literally translates to “Like a lion my hands and feet.”

From Jews for Jesus forum poster Jans: “Already covered for Psalm 22 16 (17) is the Hebrew itself as written has issues. The reading in Hebrew is ‘Ka’ari Yadai v’Raglai’ which means literally ‘As the lion my hands and my feet’. Or ‘As the lion are my hands and my feet’. The Hebrew is either missing a verb or it makes no sense. Rabbis admit to this difficulty. As seen, to make the phrase make sense, words need to be added.

So if Ka’ari, as the lion, were actually a verb, the phrase would make much more sense. Christianity reads it ‘karu’, a verb, which means bore or pierced. They have pierced my hands and my feet. The difference would be a yod vs. a vav. The difference between the letters would be the length of the ‘tail’ which is a somewhat typical error among the scribal errors.

The dead sea scroll Psalms scroll from Nahal Hever (5/6HevPs) I found on the internet clearly shows a vav. With the vav, the word would be Karu, bored or pierced. Unfortunately, I have been unable to cut and paste the image.

This would support the LXX translation of pierced, which is used in Christian translations of the text, and would also resovle the problem of the lack of a verb. So it appears this is a Kethiv Qere.”

http://forums.jewsforjesus.org/archive/index.php/thread-1618-4.html


59 posted on 08/12/2012 11:58:28 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: RaisingCain

“The Messiah is cut off,”

As mentioned previously, this is a bad thing...there have been many bad messiahs...and there is no “THE” messiah in Daniel. Just messiah...that is a tampering of the Hebrew. As a matter of fact, in all of Tanakh (OT) there is not one THE (def article) in front of messiah.

You didnt really answer B and C.

“Isa 53:1-12 He is offered as a “sin offering” “

The servant of Isaiah is identified multiple times in Isaiah 40 through 54. It is Israel, Jeshrun, Jacob and Zion. All are poetic prophetic collective nouns for for Jewish people corporately. Not once does Isaiah ever use or describe the servant as “messiah”. Not once. The prophet Isaiah constantly switches from a “singular” sevant...Jacob...and plural servants. for example.

Is 43:10 (Israel) “You are My witnesses,(plural)” declares the Lord,

“And My servant (singular) whom I have chosen,

The sin offering in Isaiah is an Asham or guilt offering. This does not help the christian argument, it makes it fall.

An Asham only atones for a limited type of sin. It is NOT a chatat. And per Lev 5:11, even FLOUR atones...not a sacrificed animal. Also, the animal had to be killed on the altar, blood sprinkled on the sides of the altar, the animals fat and ofal burned. Jsus suffocated on a Roman torture device, his throat not slit, no blood sprinkled on the altar, his fat and ofal not burned.

Is 53 does not change the fact that G-d (Deut 12, Jer 19) says he HATES human sacrifice and it never entered His mind.

G-d tells us never to engage in it. That is what the pagans do, so dont act like them. So, the church expects us to believe that G-d then acts like a pagan, and kills off his own human mortal son? G-d breaks His own Torah? G-d forbid!

“The Hebrew word translated to virgin is Almah,”

No. The Hebrew word for virgin is betulah. Almah means young woman. It says nothing about her state of sexual purity. Betulah does. Isaiah himself uses the word betulah in later passages, so clearly, if he wants to make it virgin, he knows which hebrew word to use.

Also, G-d is not going to take a mans wife and through a spirit agent, knock her up, giving the impression to all of a fornicator and adulterer.

Also, The whole point of Isaiah 7:14 is to give KING AHAZ a sign. It was not a virgin birth that was a sign to him, but the AGE of the child. By the time the child grew to know right from wrong, the two Kings who sought to destroy Israel would be killed. That was fulfilled in fact at that time. A virgin birth 700 year in the future in of NO value to Ahaz. And the implication would also be that there was 2 virgin births. Which of course is wrong.

Ps 22

13:They open wide their mouth at me,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.

David frequently uses language that shows him “surrounded” by enemies...like bees..like water...like dogs...and this is the point of Ps 22. It is about David...feeling threatened...not about a future event.

I am very familiar with teh K’ari and K’aru debate. It is not K’aru. In all other places where K’ari is found, the christian bible gets it right. “Like a lion” it is only here that they wrongly make it Pierced.

http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Psa22.pdf


117 posted on 08/13/2012 9:50:37 AM PDT by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
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