Replies

You are trying to engage a Catholic who has been shown most of these things, but who, as extensively correspondence shows, typically ignores or blithely dismisses what refutes him and does not fit into his myopic narrow view of Scripture (sometimes even in contradiction Catholic scholarship*) and instead largely reiterates the same polemics. He (also considers Baptist "friends" as lost) thus excludes himself as one who can actually engage in meaningful debate and systemic theology. But for the record in response to,

baptism is symbolic

baptism is a first act of obedience

baptism is a picture

baptism is an outward sign of something that has happened already

there are two baptisms, water baptism and Spirit baptism

i have one response: show me one verse in the Bible that says any of the above!!

baptism is symbolic:

As mostly said

1Pt. 3:21, “the like figure,” [antitupon=Neuter of a compound of G473 and G5179; corresponding (“antitype”), that is, a representative, counterpart: - (like) figure] as the flood and deliverance of Noah was, (1Pt. 3:21; cf. Heb. 9:24) both of which can be seen as figures representing salvation through Christ. Baptism there is called “the demand of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,” as a good conscience calls for obedience toward Christ, and thus souls being called to confess Christ for salvation, as well as those who have already received Him, would answer the call to be baptized, such faith as is behind the confession being justificatory.

And

1Pt. 3:21, which refers to baptism as a “like figure,” like (using the same word) the holy places on earth were “figures,” (Heb. 9:24) except in this case baptism is not the antitype fulfillment of the flood of Noah, but a “like figure,” representing salvation through Christ, who is the Ark saving souls from the judgment of water which destroyed the wicked. And Scripture affirms that it is the faith which baptism requires and expresses that appropriates this cleansing, despite your desperate attempt to deny that,

And,

1Pt. 3:21 still refers to it as a like figure of salvation, salvific as it requires and expresses faith, rather than [as in Rome] depending on whether the one doing the baptizing intends to do what Rome does, of which no one may be sure, and its efficacy is not dependent on whether the person being saved personally has faith (though they must not set up an obstacle). Because if the faith required, Westminster Standards can state, sacraments are “effectual means of salvation.” See more: http://www.joelgarver.com/writ/sacr/exopere.htm

baptism is a first act of obedience:

Believing, that of repentant faith, is the first response of obedience, and Scripture promises,

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. " (Romans 10:9-10)

And yet “God, which knoweth the hearts,” does not exclude the mute from salvation. And since you allow for baptism of desire, then you cannot deny that baptism can follow forgiveness and regeneration, even though you have no example of it under the New Covenant, as you disallow Acts 10, for which see below.

But the first commanded outward action is normally to be baptism:

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16)

"But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. " (Acts 8:12)

Those who marginalize this are wrong, as are those who suppose the act itself effects changes operating ex opere operatos (which actually can lead to uncertainty), rather than the faith behind confessing Christ in baptism (and other acts) being what is counted for righteousness, with God giving grace to those who obey Him in faith. And as baptism both requires as well as expresses faith, baptism can be the occasion when one is converted.

baptism is a picture:

This also reveals your superficial theology, as baptism is clearly shown to correspond to death:

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: " (Romans 6:4-5)

The baptized are not literally planted in the ground, especially the unScriptural method of sprinkling, but baptism represents the burial of the “old man,” though it is all to alive as Rm. 7 expresses, but consistent with what the faith that is expressed in baptism appropriates, that the demise of the past and of a new creation, (2Cor. 5:17) and the burial and resurrection that baptism represents, thus the believer is told to "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. " (Romans 6:11)

baptism is an outward sign of something that has happened already

baptism is an outward sign of something that has happened already

In Acts 10 souls who had been born again, who already “had received the Holy Spirit were baptized: "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? " (Acts 10:47) You are contrary to what Scripture teaches, and what every Roman Catholic source i have read concurs with, that Peter preached words to souls “whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved,” and as he did so, the Holy Ghost fell on Cornelius and company as it had upon the apostles, as “God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ." (Acts 11:17) “And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. " (Acts 15:8-9)

Instead, you flatly deny this, and in your private interpretation you come up with the unScriptural idea that this receiving of the Holy Spirit does not mean they believed and were born again, but that the Holy Spirit only came upon them, but which is not what the text states. As has been shown (#10)

Go find another Catholic here who agrees with you on this text before you make yourself look more extreme.

there are two baptisms, water baptism and Spirit baptism

That this can be the case is clear from above, in which before baptism, God gave souls “who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ” the same gift of the Holy Spirit as the apostles received, and which was promised in Acts 2:38, as God knoweth the hearts, at which point they would have become part of the body of Christ, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:13)

In the Old Testament the Holy Spirit of God came upon believers, and only believers (Num. 24:2; 1Sam. 10:10; 11:6; 1Chrn. 12:18; 2Chrn. 15:1; 24:20; Ezek. 11:5), and while it is taught by some that this means that Old Testament believers did not actually have the Holy Spirit in them, this is an error. (1Pt. 1:10,11) The difference between the Old and the New is that all believers are given the Holy Spirit, as He is poured out upon all flesh.

As seen below, in the New Testament the gift of the Holy Spirit was promised, and that the “Holy Spirit fell” or “came upon” on souls, but it describes this as being “baptized with” and “filled with” the Holy Spirit, and even as “receiving” the gift of the Holy Spirit. And which is twice even described as occurring subsequent to believing and being baptized, (Acts 8:12-17; 19:4-6) yet in no place is this merely an exterior enduement, rather than such souls possessing the gift of the Holy Spirit. And Ephesians 1:13 doctrinally teaches, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise." (KJV) In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation), in whom also believing, you were signed with the holy Spirit of promise. (DRB)

Promise

Realization by apostles

Realization by others

By faith (as seen by God, which knoweth the hearts), not because the faith-response makes one deserving

But by the kind of God-given faith that will effect obedience, confessing Christ in word and deed (which Reformers taught) but different than in RC soteriology

"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:37-39)

"And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. " (Luke 24:49)

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. " (John 14:26)

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:8)

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. " (Acts 2:38)

"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. " (Luke 24:47)

"Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. " (Acts 5:31-32)

"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." (Acts 2:1-4)

"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." (Acts 2:33)

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." (Acts 10:43-48)

"And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." (Acts 11:13-18)

"And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith." (Acts 15:7-9)

"Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. " (Acts 19:4-6)

"But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.” “Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. " (Acts 8:12, 14-17)

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, " (Ephesians 1:13)

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. " (Romans 6:23)

"And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness. " (Genesis 15:5-6)

"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, " (Romans 4:2-6)

"He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." (Romans 4:20-22)

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; " (Titus 3:5)

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? " (Galatians 3:2)

"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. " (Matthew 10:32)

"But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Romans 10:8-10)

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. " (Mark 16:15-16)

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:4)

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." (Romans 2:13)

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; " (Hebrews 5:9)

"But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." (Hebrews 6:9)

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. " (James 2:18)

"Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. " (James 2:22-23)

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: " (Matthew 25:34-35)

"Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. " (Revelation 3:4)

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. " (Revelation 22:14)

The radical Catholic who denies that Acts 10 examples regeneration before baptism is forced to assert what the New Testament Scriptures of the Holy Spirit will not allow, while even if regeneration before baptism is only allowed as an exception, it destroys baptism being an absolute necessity for the remission of sins, and regeneration, which some interpret Jn. 3:5 as teaching.

Faith has always taught and believed that baptism is for:
1. the remission of sins
2. receiving the Holy Spirit
3. placing us into Christ.

As seen above, what Scripture collectively teaches is that is the faith which confesses the crucified and risen Lord Jesus, the Son of God, that appropriates remission of sins, and regeneration, and placing on into Christ, and thus this can occur at baptism (but not due to baptism working as per ex opere operatos via proxy faith), yet as it is faith that appropriates justification, so souls can be forgiven and regenerated (and thus added to the body of Christ) prior to baptism, although baptism is normatively part of the conversion event.

was Joseph Smith right that the whole Church went apostate after all the Apostles died?

No, as the LDS effectively operates according to the Roman model, that being sola ecclesia, in which an infallibly type magisterium defines tradition, Scripture and history as supporting them, which both Rome and the LDS and other cults do in their self-proclamation of themselves as the one true Church®.

However, as Rome holds to many core essentials, and as prior to Trent she was not as settled in her errors, Catholics within her could (and yet can) be saved within if they come to Christ as souls damned for their works - not saved because of them - and destitute of any means or merit whereby they may escape their just and eternal punishment in Hell Fire and gain eternal life with God. And who thus cast all their whole hearted faith upon the mercy of God in Christ, trusting the risen Lord Jesus to save them by His sinless shed blood, (Rm. 3:9 - 5:1) and so follow Him by the Spirit.

However, such will not restrict the one body of Eph. 4:5 to their particular church, but like Peter did as regards Cornelius and company, they will recognize all believe the gospel and manifest effectual faith as brethren.

* I have never seen any other Roman Catholic deny the regeneration of Cornelius before baptism.

Catholic answers states,

Christians have also always realized that the necessity of water baptism is a normative rather than an absolute necessity. There are exceptions to water baptism: It is possible to be saved through "baptism of blood," martyrdom for Christ, or through "baptism of desire", that is, an explicit or even implicit desire for baptism.

For which it quotes

Augustine: For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:21:28 [A.D. 400]). .— http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-necessity-of-baptism

Augustine: As therefore in Abraham the justification of faith came first, and circumcision was added afterwards as the seal of faith; so in Cornelius the spiritual sanctification came first in the gift of the Holy Spirit, and the sacrament of regeneration was added afterwards in the layer of baptism. And as in Isaac, who was circumcised on the eighth day after his birth, the seal of this righteousness of faith was given first, and afterwards, as he imitated the faith of his father, the righteousness itself followed as he grew up, of which the seal had been given before when he was an infant; so in infants, who are baptized, the sacrament of regeneration is given first, and if they maintain a Christian piety, conversion also in the heart will follow, of which the mysterious sign had gone before in the outward body. (St Augustine Bishop of Hippo On Baptism Against the Donatists chap 24, 32)

As also the Roman Catholic Haydock commentary states,

Such may be the grace of God occasionally towards men, and such their great charity and contrition, that they may have remission, justification, and sanctification, before the external sacraments of baptism, confirmation, and penance be received; as we see in this example: where, at Peter’s preaching, they all received the Holy Ghost before any sacrament. - http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id125.html

Likewise Roman Catholic apologist John Martignoni, certainly no liberal, while upholding a sacramental need for baptism, states, “Regarding Cornelius and the Holy Spirit. Cornelius did indeed receive the Holy Spirit before he was baptized. God can do whatever He wants.” http://www.menofstjoseph.com/blog/?p=19