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To: Persevero
It teaches that men are totally depraved, and that left to their free will, they will choose evil every time. Unless God in His Mercy restrains you from evil. He gives you the gift of salvation. In your sin, you’d never take it. In His mercy, you do.

I realize I'm coming into this discussion late, but I've read the posts to this point and haven't seen this brought up yet....

Paul makes the point twice in Romans (4:14 & 5:13) that apart from the law, there is no transgression. They were still subject to physical death, "even over those who did not sin by breaking a commandment (5:14)".

Paul says in Romans 7:9 that he was "once alive apart from the law.." the implication seeming to be that his knowledge of the law brought conviction which led to repentance.

The story of Josiah in 2 Kings 22 provides a similar example. The book of the law was found. Josiah became aware that they were violating the law and immediately initiated repentance.

The story doesn't mention any intervention of the Holy Spirit causing them to repent. In 22:19 God responds, "Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the Lord when you heard..." It appears that God's grace and mercy was a response to their choosing. There is no indication in the scripture that God chose them to be responsive.

In Romans 5:18, Paul says, "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men." If God chooses the elect, is Paul offering a false promise, or is he ignorant of God's intentions?

121 posted on 06/22/2012 5:49:11 AM PDT by Can i say that here?
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To: Can i say that here?

“If God chooses the elect, is Paul offering a false promise, or is he ignorant of God’s intentions? “

No, I’d never say that Paul or any inspired writer of Scripture is offering a false promise, or that he is ignorant.

You are walking into the purpose of the law now, which is an entire other subject. A very deep subject.

“It appears that God’s grace and mercy was a response to their choosing.” Yes, it does appear that way in the verses you cited. If that was all the Bible had to say about mankind repenting, I wouldn’t be talking about foreordination, election, predestination etc.

But we have the Romans 9 lengthy passage which I’ve cited quite a bit, as well as many other verses which talk about God foreordaining, electing, and etc. So you have to take the Scripture as a whole.

Consider that Esau tried in some manner to repent, but could not; that Pharoah hardened his heart yet God hardened Pharoah’s heart; that the dry bones were dead and gone yet it was God that gave them life; that God CHOSE Abraham, chose Israel, chose David, and etc., and speaks repeatedly about Him being the one that did the choosing; many other OT references to God’s sovereignty in salvation as well as everything else. Then when you get to the New Testament it is spelled out as in a theology handbook. It is simply declared.

Yet another example (I have posted many):

“For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Moreover, whom He predestined, those He also called; and whom He called, those He also justified; and whom He justified, those He also glorified.” Romans 8:29-30


156 posted on 06/22/2012 8:42:40 AM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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