I’m a Mormon, Not a Christian [Mega hit piece on Christians]

New York Times ^ | June 12, 2012 | David V. Mason

[greyfoxx39]

................... Mormons seem to be everywhere.

I want to be on record about this. I’m about as genuine a Mormon as you’ll find — a templegoer with a Utah pedigree and an administrative position in a congregation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am also emphatically not a Christian.

-SNIP-

In addition, these Christians had to defend their use of additional scripture and their unconventional conception of God and explain why they were following a bumpkin carpenter from some obscure backwater. Early Christianity’s relationship with non-Jews was even worse. Roman writers frequently alluded to rumors about the cannibalistic and hedonistic elements of early Christian rites. One after the other, Christians went to the lions because they found it impossible to defend themselves against such outrageous accusations. They did eat flesh and drink blood every Sunday, after all.

Eventually, Christianity grew up and conceded that it wasn’t authentic Judaism. Lo and behold, once it had given up its claim to Judaism, it became a state religion — cannibalism notwithstanding — and spent the next 1,700 years getting back at all the bullies who had slighted it when it was a child.

-SNIP-

Whatever happens in November, I hope Mormonism eventually realizes that it doesn’t need Christianity’s approval and will get big and beat up all the imperious Christians who tormented it when it was small, weird and painfully self-conscious. Mormons are certainly Christian enough to know how to spitefully abuse their power.

[muawiyah]

Real quick, search the thread for MAINLINE. Read my discussion of Mainline vs. Mainstream.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the theology of the churches ~ just where the rich people in Philadelphia who lived along the Mainline went to church.

[muawiyah]

Most Christians on FR have a much more educated understanding of Mormonism than the general public. We can't help it. Many of us have relatives somewhere in that movement, or who ustabe there. Fortunately for me most of my ancestors who got caught up in Mormonism were excommunicated personally by Joseph Smith himself according to the Doctrines and Covenants.

I couldn't get in (Permanently) for anything even if I wanted to. They'd catch up with me eh!

[greyfoxx39]

Anybody that votes Democrat, supports the evils of the Liberal Supreme Court, they can NOT have it both ways

Not sure I agree on the SCOTUS. On some decisions no, on others yes. They are only men/women and fallible. I am counting on the present group to rein in Obama. Your mileage may vary.

[Springfield Reformer]

“Over the years, in a careful effort to distinguish itself...”

Like Disney. And that’s saying a lot. Talk about protecting the brand! Yeesh! Too bad Christians don’t have trademark protection. Guess we’ll have to keep on clinging bitterly to our Bibles and let God sort it out at day’s end.

[Elsie]

That being said, there are also many decent Muslims, but Islam it self is evil.

There are decent, compassionate socialists also, but socialism is evil.

There are many decent MORMONs, but MORMONism itself is a SATANIC deception.

[Elsie]

My point was the producers of South Park, who pride themselves in sparing no one, spared muslims when threatened.

Oh?

They were THREATENED?

I missed that!

BTW, you've evidently missed reply #39.

[Elsie]

You condemn Mormoms for following edicts not in the Bible yet you give a pass on Catholic for follow Canon Law that isn't based in the Scripures.

What?

1. I condemned NO ONE.
2. Especially about about something in the BIBLE.
3. It is MORMON 'scripture' and Prophet #2 that condemns them.
4. I gave no pass to anyone.

You'll need a LOT more straw if you are going to build successful strawman to attack.

To: RedMonqey

Good Catholics don't.

Oh?

And just which SCRIPTURE do they base this practice upon?

MORMONs can POINT to theirs!

 

118 posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 2:42:34 PM by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)

[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 98 | View Replies | Report Abuse]

[Osage Orange]

Good post.

[Elsie]

So Mormons aren't covered under John 3:18? They say they believe in Christ.

Of course they say this, and PROUDLY state that the name is on their buildings, and in the NAME of their religion (but it wasn't in the begining - strange).

However; when you study to see what CHRIST is capable of in the MORMON religion; you'll see that he is limited compared to what Chrsitianity has always described hIm.

What you find in MORMONism is a 'christ' that is FALSE: just as the BIBLE warned about since it's inception.

Matthew 24:24

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

If a book of "GoldenPlates" is NOT a 'great sign'; then I would have to wonder just what WOULD qualify.

If Joseph Smith is not a FALSE prophet; then I can't think of any who WOULD qualify for the label.

[Elsie]

Hey general, lay out the plan to do that. And the percent probability for success.

 

 

2 Chronicles 7:14 (KJV)

 If my people,

which are called by my name,

shall humble themselves,

and pray,

and seek my face,

and turn from their wicked ways;

then will I hear from heaven,

and will forgive their sin,

and will heal their land.

[Elsie]

And the percent probability for success.

 

100

[Elsie]

Most would agree that FR is not representative of the entire country, of even of “most Christians.”

Although SOME of us could be considered to be an EXCELLANT role model.

[Elsie]

The original version of the Word of Wisdom published as Section LXXX in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants punctuates the passage you quoted above a little differently than the version you provided above.

What?

The MORMON god didn't make sure it was transcribed right the FIRST time?

(Or is it the SECOND that is right?)

[Elsie]

The original version of the Word of Wisdom published as Section LXXX in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants punctuates the passage you quoted above a little differently than the version you provided above.

How about the BATHING in strong liquor?

Is THAT part still right? (or WRONG??)

[Elsie]

 

 

 

Afghanistan

121.63 / 1,000

 infant mortality

 

Abortions kills 250 / 1,000

 

what is the COFB rate?

[Elsie]

Wonder if they’ve sent that letter to my cousin Steve.

He thinks he’s head of the only true Mormon church.

Nah... Just to MEDIA types.

Although he COULD be a head of a MORMON church; as there are an AWFUL lot of them!!!

---

With the Mormons (to be precise, the members of The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - based in Salt Lake City) intent on being called “Christians” after so many years of eschewing that word, and despite the fact that there are so many fundamental theological differences between Christianity and Mormonism, I often wonder: 

How do members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints feel about calling the members of its various spin-off sects Latter-Day Saints, Christians, or Mormons? Or about those sects calling themselves Mormons or Latter-Day Saints? (There was an earlier campaign by LDS to have journalism style books use the word “Mormon” to refer only to LDS, and not RLDS, FLDS, or other LDS sects).

For a man who bragged about holding things together, Joseph Smith, Jr. doesn’t appear go have done a good job of it during his lifetime. Wycam Clark’s “Pure Church of Christ” spun off in 1831. This trend continued. There were six LDS sects spawned in the 1830s, eight in the 1840s, two in the 1850s, and seven in the 1860s.

Do those responsible for the “Mormons are Christians” campaign consider these denominations to be Mormons or Latter-Day Saints? Surely many of these denominations are much closer to mainstream LDS than LDS is to Christianity. Many stick to Smith’s teachings and old temple endowment ceremonies.

Short Creek Community
Latter Day Church of Christ
Apostolic United Brethren
Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness [sic] of Times
Church of the Lamb of God
Church of the New Covenant in Christ
Confederate Nations of Israel
Righteous Branch of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
School of the Prophets
Centennial Park
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Kingdom of God
True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days
The Church of the Firstborn and the General Assembly of Heaven

Blackmore/Bountiful Community
Restoration Church of Jesus Christ
Order of Enoch
Aaronic Order
Zion’s Order, Inc.
Perfected Church of Jesus Christ of Immaculate Latter-day Saints
Church of Jesus Christ (Bullaite)
Community of Christ
Church of Jesus Christ (Toneyite)
Independent RLDS / Restoration Branches
Church of Jesus Christ Restored 1830
Church of Christ (Lion of God Ministry/Clarkite)
Church of Jesus Christ (Zion’s Branch)
Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
Church of Christ (Temple Lot) (Hedrickite)
Church of Christ (Fettingite) (Hedrickite)
Church of Christ at Halley’s Bluff (Hedrickite)
Church of Christ (Restored) (Hedrickite)
Church of Christ “With the Elijah Message” (Hedrickite)
Church of Christ (Hancock) (Hedrickite)
Church of Christ (Burtite) (Hendrickite)
Church of Israel (Hendrickite)
Church of Christ with the Elijah Message (The Assured Way of the Lord) (Hendrickite)
The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)
Church of Jesus Christ (Cutlerite)
True Church of Jesus Christ (Cutlerite)
Restored Church of Jesus Christ (Cutlerite)
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite)
Holy Church of Jesus Christ (Strangite)
Church of Jesus Christ (Drewite) (Strangite)
True Church of Jesus Christ Restored (Strangite)
Pentecostal Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Whitmerite)

Or these defunct sects:

Pure Church of Christ (Clarkite)
Independent Church (Hotonite)
Church of Christ (Boothite)
Church of Christ (Parrishite)
Alston Church
Church of Christ (Chubbyite)
Church of Jesus Christ, the Bride, the Lamb’s Wife
Church of Christ (Pageite)
True Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (this one was particularly curious - started by William Law, editor of The Nauvoo Expositor, just one of many sects started in opposition to plural marriage)
The Church of Zion (Godbeite)
United Order Family of Christ
Church of the Potter Christ
Church of the Firstborn (Morrisite)
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Gibsonite)
Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Most High
Church of the Christian Brotherhood
Church of Jesus Christ of the Children of Zion (Rigdonite) Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)
Primative Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)
Church of Christ (Aaron Smith)
Church of the Messiah (Adamsite)
Church of Christ (Wrightite)
Church of Christ (Whitmerite)
Church of Christ (Brewsterite)
The Bride, the Lamb’s Wife
Congregation of Jehovah’s Presbytery of Zion
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Gladdenite)
Independent Latter Day Saints of Nigeria
Independent Latter Day Saints of Ghana
Apostolic Divine Church of Ghana

Are members of those LDS groups “Mormons”? “Latter Day Saints?” “Christians?”

Do the folks in Salt Lake City have a problem with any of those groups, who believe in the restoration of the original church by Joseph Smith, calling themselves Mormons or Saints?

Most of these divisions in the Latter-Day Saint movement occurred over the issue of polygamy or succession of the Prophet. Sects broke off when Joseph Smith was still alive, and when Brigham Young was named prophet, because they didn’t believe in the practice of plural marriage – either publicly, or in some cases when it was practiced in private and denied in public.

Of course, there was the great split between Rocky Mountain Saints and Prairie Saints, when LDS members couldn’t agree on a successor prophet to Smith, Jr., and the church went to Utah, Missouri, Illinois, Michigan, and Pennsylvania under Brigham Young, Sidney Rigdon (senior member of the First Presidency), James Strang, Lyman Wight, Alpheus Cutler, William Smith, David Whitmer (a BOM witness), or Joseph Smith III (son of Joseph Smith, Jr.). Almost all of these individuals still has multiple sects in existence that date to an 1844 decision about who should be the next President/Prophet of the church.

The Prairie Saints split into sects over the issue of whether Smith practiced polygamy. Rocky Mountain Saints had many, many spinoff sects after the 1890 Manifesto – groups that still practice plural marriage.

======================================================================================================================================================

Thanks to ScoutMaster for all the hard work here!

[Elsie]

...there are an AWFUL lot of them!!!

---

 

 

JESUS: Hey Smith! Remember that boast you made about doing more than even I had done to hold the 'church' together?

JOSEPH SMITH: Where am I?

JESUS: Don't you remember? A few seconds ago you were in that jail.

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh; yeah; but where am I NOW?

JESUS: Don't you remember? Does bang - bang ring a bell?

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh; yeah - that crummy gun I had was about USELESS!

JESUS: I hope you left instructions on how to hold your church together.

JOSEPH SMITH: Dang! I knew there was SOMETHING I was forgetting!

JESUS: Looks like there's a power struggle going on down there.

JOSEPH SMITH: Yeah; there was always SOMEone who wanted the power that I held - especially over the LADIES - wink wink.

JESUS: No need to worry about that now; remember what my friend Matthew wrote down?

JOSEPH SMITH: This? “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:30)

JESUS: That's it.

JOSEPH SMITH: I thought that was mistranslated.

JESUS: Nah - it was right.

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh well; it was fun while it lasted. My buds will still get it on with the girls.

JESUS: Uh; I'm sorry; in just a few more years; your followers will cavein to the United States government and abandon the 'Eternal Covenant' that you came up with.

JOSEPH SMITH: ME!? YOU are the one that told me to do that!

JESUS: Sorry; but you must have mistranslated what I told you. What part of Do NOT commit ADULTERY did you not understand?

JOSEPH SMITH: mumble....

JESUS: What did you say?

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh, nothing.

JESUS: Well; it was interesting talking to you; but now I must get back to perparing a place for those who believe in Me.

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh, yeah; the Celestial Kingdom.

JESUS: No...

JOSEPH SMITH: The Telestial one?

JESUS: Nope.

JOSEPH SMITH: SUREly not the TERRESTRIAL one!!

JESUS: Nope. Didn't you read that the mind of man had NOT conceived of it? Paul wrote it down in 1 Corinthians 2:9.

JOSEPH SMITH: I thought that was mistranslated.

JESUS: No; it wasn't.

JOSEPH SMITH: You SURE?

JESUS: Yes. Now I must be going: what did you say your name was again?

JOSEPH SMITH: Joseph Smith.

JESUS: Hmmmm. According to my Heavenly FAITHbook, you didn't sign in as one of my friends - sorry, I never knew you.

JOSEPH SMITH: But....

[Elsie]

You are welcome to your opinion of FReepers.

It could be quite high; just that it is considered DIFFERENT than 'most Christians'.

[Elsie]

“Over the years, in a careful effort to distinguish itself...”

Noted Professor at BYU says...

Mr. Millet:

 

I don't think we can ever transcend Joseph Smith or consider him to be a valued personality, but now we'll move on.

I don't think you'll see that among believers in the faith, because there are too many other things that came from him

that are the reasons why we do what we do and we are what we are. That there are unanswered questions, to be sure.

That there are things that I'm as anxious as the next guy to learn more detail on, I really want to know. But in the interim,

 it really doesn't, doesn't trouble me.

We're in the religion-making business, as you intimated earlier, only for a short time, I mean, compared to the

Christian church, which has been at this for a couple of millennia. We're about halfway to Nicaea.

And so, and so in that sense — I remember a very tender moment. I was speaking with — I've been invited

to the Salt Lake Theological Seminary, basically an Evangelical seminary, to discuss a book I had done on Jesus.

And they had read it, and they wanted me to come and just respond to questions.

And it was, it was a very enjoyable couple of hours.

 

The very last question that was asked by one of my friends there was this one.

 

He said, 'Bob, what can we do for you?'

 

And I, I wasn't ready for that question. I said, 'What do you mean?'

 

He said, 'What can we, as Evangelicals, do for our Mormon friends?'

 

And I, I guess my mind could have gone a hundred different ways, but what I came back with was this.

 

I said, 'Boy, I appreciate you asking that. I don't think I've ever been asked that.'

 

But, but I said, 'Try this. Cut us a little slack, will you? Give us a little time.

We're in the religion-making business, and this takes time. It takes centuries.

 

And, and trying to explain the faith and articulate the faith, that doesn't come over night.

We've really only been about that for 20 or 30 years.'

 

 

http://being.publicradio.org/programs/insidemormonfaith/transcript.shtml

[x]

FWIW When Harry Truman came of age in Independence Missouri a century ago, the largest denomination in town was the Mormons.

They were the members of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (now the Community of Christ), followers of Joseph Smith's son who didn't follow Brigham Young to Utah.

Truman had problems coming to terms with a lot of racial and ethnic groups, but he didn't seem to have a problem with the (Reorganized) Mormons.