This thread is another example of this.
From the Mormon source: ...the angel Moroni, a DECEASED prophet...
Do you realize that Smith -- and Mormons across the board -- say, in effect, that a "ghost" visited Joseph Smith as the very jumpstart of Mormonism!
First question: How did the founder of Mormonism attempt to distinguish between ghosts, demons, angels, and Satan?
Second question: Was it true that Joseph Smith never claimed that Satan appeared to him?
Let’s cover the second question first:
In E.D. Howe's 1834 book Mormonism Unvailed, Mormon apostate Ezra Booth claimed in an affidavit that Joseph Smith said that the devil once "appeared to him in the same form" as an angel.
Booth said Smith related that the angel came "as having the appearance of a 'tall, slim, well built, handsome man, with a bright pillar upon his head.'" The devil then supposedly appeared to Smith "in the same form, excepting upon his head he had a 'black pillar,' and by this mark he was able to distinguish him from the former."
So this leads into the first question: How did the founder of Mormonism attempt to distinguish between ghosts, demons, angels, and Satan?
’Discernment’ lesson #1 from Joseph Smith as to how you can distinguish between demons, ghosts, angels and any other spirits:
Per Smith, it was the color of the pillar (bright vs. black).
Now do we have to rely upon Booth’s hearsay evidence to believe that Joseph Smith was into “unorthodox” means of testing the spirits? Did Joseph Smith provide any direct evidence on this question?
The answer is a definitive ‘yes’! (At least twice)
You see, Joseph Smith covered this” issue” with SEVERAL references in his book Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith…a book of Smith excerpts put together by a Mormon “prophet” – Joseph Fielding Smith. This book was published in 1938.
More on that next post!
"Soon after the Gospel was established in Kirtland...many false spirits were introduced, many strange visions were seen, and wild, enthusiastic notions were entertained; men ran out doors under the influence of this spirit, and some of them got upon the stumps of trees and shouted, and all kinds of extravagances were entered into by them; one man pursued a ball that he said he saw flying in the air, until he came to a precipice, when he jumped into the top of a tree, which saved his life; and many ridiculous things were entered into... (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 213-214)
There we go. Smith openly says “many false spirits were introduced, many strange visions were seen…men ran out doors under the influence of this spirit…one man pursued a ball that he said he saw flying in the air…” -- and that ball almost led that man to his death!
[Interesting that some modern accounts talk about “ghosts” as a “ball of light” flying in the air!]
Well that was Mormonism ala 1830s. What about into the early 1840s?
Obviously these spirits were having their way with early Mormons. So did it stop by a dozen years into the early church?
No! By 1842, Smith was still saying: "Or who can drag into daylight and develop the hidden mysteries of the false spirits that so frequently are made manifest among the Latter-day Saints?" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 204)
Smith then related point blank that: There have also been ministering angels IN THE CHURCH which were OF SATAN appearing as an angel of light. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 214)
Smith then went on to describe an entity appearing to a New York woman. So Smith then came up with…
’Discernment’ lesson #2 from Joseph Smith as to how you can distinguish between demons, ghosts, angels and any other spirits:
Many true things were spoken by this personage, and many things that were false. How, it may be asked, was this known to be a bad angel? By the color of his hair; that is one of the signs that he can be known by..." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Deseret News Press, 1938, pp. 214-215)
Ah, the “color of his hair” is key, eh? Does this sound like a “prophet” of God to you?
Ah, but we’re not done.
’Discernment’ lesson #3 from Joseph Smith as to how you can distinguish between demons, ghosts, angels and any other spirits:
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you. 5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand...8 If it be the devil• as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel• anything; you may therefore detect him. 9 These are three grand keys• whereby you may know whether any administration is from God. (From Lds Doctrine & Covenants 129)
You see. Joseph Smith realized that the dead could reappear – and appear as angels. He knew this. He had to justify in his own mind which entity appeared to him. It was the same thing with Mohammed, who would go into a cave and receive visions. Mohammed was 100% convinced it was jinn (demons) who were appearing to him. But then a nominal Christian relative of his wife convinced Mohammed that the visions were of an angel, and not jinn.
So in Smith’s case, he justified continued contact with this entity by claiming he was able to distinguish spirits by simply just “shaking hands” with the ghost, demon, angel or alien – and that was enough per Joseph Smith!
Of course, underlying all of the Mormon early visions, therefore, is the identity of Moroni.
In justifying this spirit-entity, Moroni, it led to Smith presenting a MAJOR revelational heresy re: angels.
You see, Joseph Smith, when he tried to convince his first wife by "revelation" that polygamy was "A-OK"...began teaching that some men -- upon getting "out of the world" (D&C 132:15) -- "are appointed angels in heaven" (D&C 132:16).
If you believe some men become angels, that is a HUGE error! (The Bible, nor the Book of Mormon teaches this!)
Men become angels? [Sounds a bit like the Jehovah's Witness belief that Jesus was an angel who became a man and a god (god with small "g")].
The revelational problem with this -- and why Mormons flunk Biblical theology on angels -- is that the Old Testament clearly teaches that...
...angels are distinct from humans (see Psalm 8:4-5)
-- and furthermore, angels don't die (see Luke 20:36).
The "Speaking of ghosts" includes coverage of pix of "ghosts" @ a Salt Lake City hospital and strange phenomenon @ the Mormon Missionary Training Center.
The "Utah Ghosts" mentions the location of the Mountain Meadows Massacre and one Freepers own experience there @ night...and mentions a Porter Rockwell location. Rockwell was a "bodyguard" for Mormon "prophets" -- a recognized mass murderer.
* The twilight saga [The OTHER World Series...Mormon Vampires]
* Mormon Doctrine on Shaking Hands With Spirits [The Other World Series]
* Priesthood of Joseph Smith [The OTHER World Series]
In this thread, see
^ Mormon leader quotations showing how they concede the devil was confusing them with "revelations."
^ How they encourage visitations from the dead & spirit entities -- while encouraging "personal revelations" from them...
^ See how Mormons define some deceased men as "angels" -- despite the Bible communicating just the opposite.
^ And see what Lds "apostle" Parley Pratt said about communicating with the dead -- and how Joseph Smith was a "medium" in interacting with the dead.
I’m confused what is this thread about, I was drawn to “World Series”???
We don't oppose Myth because he is a Mormon, we oppose him because he is a clone to Obama.
I don't think Mormon's are devil worshipers, I had Mormon neighbors who while sometimes were cranky if we were noisy at night when I had people over, they were generally nice people.
And I did not see any demonic icons in their home, they celebrate Easter, Christmas, ect...
This just makes FR look bad IMO, but I'll leave that to the Religion Mod.
I think Mormons miss out on the great unifying theme of the Bible. God always was and is and will be, despite what happens with creation. God is outside of the creation because He created it. This is utterly consistent with what we see in the created order, starting with the 3K background radiation, which is nothing but an artifact of the universe coming ex nihilo.
Mitt Romney's direct ancestor that his family into Mormonism was Orson Pratt. Both Orson and his brother, Parley P. Pratt, were Lds "apostles."
Parley Pratt is front-and-center quoted on these matters by Mormon authors even today!
For example: "...we frequently hold communication with our departed father, mother, brother, sister, son or daughter; or with the former husband or wife of our bosom..." (See Duane Crowther's book, Life Everlasting ...footnote 41 of that book)
Crowther's book is published by a well-known Mormon book publisher -- Bookcraft. Mormon John Heinerman's book, Temple Manifestations, is a similar book. Both books present MUCH in the way of spirit manifestations even in current Mormonism...and they present them in a "positive" slant.
Such accounts even make it into the syllabus of BYU courses...like Religious Education C261, Introduction to LDS Family History (Genealogy), where they speak of manifestations of supposed dead spirits.
While indeed most of these accounts don't initially involve Mormons initiating contact with these "spirits..." The reality seems to be that...
(1) By Mormon leaders sanctioning the dead appearing to their members as something "spiritual," they encourage such contact even if the examples they use are ones where the Mormons are on the receiving side.
(2) It's possible that Mormons, although not initiating contact the first time, perhaps have done so on ensuing occasions.
When you look at Crowther's book, Life Everlasting, Crowther says on pp. 249-250 that these are "good spirits" who "return to earth and converse with Mormons." How does Crowther know that's the case across the board?
Crowther goes on to claim "seven reasons" for why these "spirits" communicate with Mormons:
1. give counsel
2. give comfort
3. obtain or give information
4. serve as guardian angels
5. prepare others for death
6. summon mortals into the spirit world
7. escort the dying through the veil of death
Source: Crowther, Life Everlasting, Bookcraft, 1988, pp. 249-250
According to John Ankerberg and John Weldon, "Such teaching is in complete harmony with the teachings of mediums and spiritists everywhere. Indeed, on these points it is impossible to distinguish Mormon practice from general spiritism." (The Facts on the Mormon Church by John Ankerberg, John Weldon,& Dillon Burroughs 1991/2009 Harvest House, p. 73)
For more on this topic, see last October's thread: They See Dead People?
And another big problem is that humans do not become angels. Angels are completely different created beings.
Perhaps Smith managed to talk to the Senecas and Onondagas in his region and threw that in. Who knows? Only now the oral history of the Algonkin and Iroquois is slowly being written down.
The hundreds of ``mounds``, Ft. Plain, e.g., in western New York State were there, according to the Iroquois, before their ancestors arrived there.
Many more near Potsdam also same oral tradition. According to Iroquois oral tradition, the Iroquois heard that the white man had landed in New York [New Netherland] 1609 and that they were looking for gold, and killing Indians to get the gold bracelets off their arms. So the Iroquois spread the word to gather up all the gold [nuggets?]and hide it so it would appear that there was no gold and the whites would not kill them to get the gold they were wearing or torture them to find out where the gold was.
This tradition of hiding the gold is from 3 different sources,
1. one is Mohawk late 1940`s fom the St. Regis Reservation I heard from Talkers [Akseswane]
2. the other is earlier Mohawk from the Mohawk Valley, circa 1620 -1645. Dutch accounts refer to it``looking for gold in the Catskills and Hudson Valley Indians wearing gold bracelets``
3. Local oral tradition from 1814 from Mohawks living in the Adirondacks -
[One 2-oz nugget recovered from an Indian cave in 1814 is in a museum here.]
[Joseph Smith found the gold plates in a ``hill` [mound?] near Manchester, NY.]
The Dutch had 3 working gold mines in 1621 in Washington County, NY, rediscovered in 1887 by a businessman-turned-prospector from Glens Falls NY.]
Also they had a working silver mine [with a Dutch fort nearby to protect it, called by the French in 1756 the `ancient fort`-] rediscovered and reworked in 1858 by a local in the Adirondacks, closed and hidden until later rediscovered and secretly worked in 1953 until a landslide covered it up...
2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
6 He is not here: for he is arisen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.