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To: BlackElk
Benedict XVI has lifted the excommunications but not (as I understand it) the Declaration of Schism (also by John Paul II).

No. Anyone in schism is automatically excommunicated. SSPX bishops have always denied the charge of schism and Pope Benedict's disavowal of the excommunications provides acknowledgment that their is no schism. Benedict's admission that the Latin Mass was never suspended, despite the words and actions of previous liberal popes and bishops, shows that the SSPX was correct in that regard as well.

I acknowledge that there have been many shameful episodes of anti-Semitism in history and all too many by Catholics. OTOH, I am partially English and I do not defend the behavior of the likes of Henry VIII or Elizabeth I, partially German and despise Hitler and Bismarck, partially Scottish but loathe those in league with Edward I (Longshanks), partially Irish and am repulsed by the Castle Irish and those who "drank the soup" during the famine.

Is their any more historic guilt you wish to pile on the heads of Catholics? One never sees Jews or Muslims slobbering with such self-abasement about their misdeeds against Christianity. Get a grip.

19 posted on 10/20/2011 5:40:50 PM PDT by mas cerveza por favor
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To: mas cerveza por favor; Dr. Sivana; Tax-chick; ArrogantBustard; ninenot; AnAmericanMother
No Catholic who is a Catholic should have the slightest concern over the self-serving claptrap and rationalizations and Clintonian tortured word-parsings of the schismatic SSPX ecclesiastical revolutionaries who were justly excommunicated AND declared in schism by Pope John Paul II for the ecclesiastical crime of the late Archbishop Marcel LeFebvre conjuring up a delusional claim of "emergency" to justify his gross disobedience toward legitimate papal authority and his stiff-necked contempt for John Paul II's orders NOT to consecrate as bishops de Mallerais, Fellay, Williamson and Gallaraga (unless he had a predecessor in schism) each of whom was also an object of that declaration of schism and of excommunication.

Pope Benedict XVI lifted the excommunications of those still living (which would not include Marcel LeFebvre who died without recanting his misbehavior). B-XVI most certainly did not "disavow" those excommunications. Think of B-XVI extending papal charity toward the surviving miscreants to give them an opportunity to recant their evil.

If anyone in schism is automatically excommunicated, you will notice that B-XVI has also treated the Eastern Orthodox as no longer excommunicated. Is the Great Schism not a schism or does the papacy have considerably more authority than marvelous Marcel and his fellow miscreants imagine?

Don't bother to repeat the foolish nonsense of Dario Cardinal Castrillon de Hoyos and Msgr. Perle neither of whom has been pope or ever will be in disagreeing with John Paul II's declarations against SSPX. Their wish to play "Fr. Recruiting Sergeant" towards the tradition-hating "traditionalists" of SSPX does not trump papal authority.

We have our Tridentine Mass back not because of the grand theft (of bishop status) ecclesiastical of SSPX's chronic malcontents and eccentrics but in spite of it. de Mallerais and Williamson are particularly loathsome, but each and every one of them with the possible exception of Gallaraga has played a role in making restoration far more difficult than it had to be.

Unless you have previously used other screennames on FR, we have not tangled previously. I almost left the Church for Russian Orthodoxy in the 1970s over liturgical abuses. I was persuaded to wait a year by a fellow alumnus of the Jesuit prep school I attended and I never changed. I recognize, as Catholics must, the validity of a properly celebrated Novus Ordo Mass but prefer the Tridentine Mass which is the exclusive form celebrated by the Institute of Christ the King pastor at our local Oratory. Whatever your personal opinions of "previous liberal popes" may be, is irrelevant. They were popes (whether you admit it or deny it, whether Marcel obeyed or disobeyed, whether your tastes were offended or not) and that settles the issue. No one died and left you or Marcel or SSPX or SSPV or "Pope" Michael of North Dakota or the late Leonard Feeney, SJ, during his excommunicated period or otherwise, or Fr. Nicholas Gruner or some village idiot posturing as Catholic or any number of other miscreants to sit in judgment upon any pope.

As to any misdeeds by Jews and by Moslems, I will leave that to them and to God. Their souls and the eternal disposition thereof are in their own hands subject to God's judgment. If any of them have offended us in any way, we should remind ourselves of the words of the Lord's Prayer which we Catholics and some other Christians pray as Jesus instructed us: "...Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us...." That is to say, if we don't forgive those who sin against us, we are asking God not to forgive us for our own sins against whomever and more importantly against Him. As to those who commit various evils in the name of Catholicism, it is a different story in that candor requires that we Catholics (assuming that you are Catholic) recognize evils committed in our name as Catholics. I would be happy to see Williamson excommunicated again until he cleans up his anti-semitic act and publicly repents. Whether he is excommunicated again is up to B-XVI and his successors. The Keys are his and will never be mine (for which fact SSPX should be eternally thankful).

It is an insult to human intelligence (and to history) to deny that evils have been perpetrated against Jews by Catholics (however sinful). Crusaders on their way to the Holy Land apparently stopped at Jewish European villages on the way to rape Jewish women and loot the towns. They were marching towards Jerusalem to free the Holy Land from Islam because God wills it (Deus Vult). They were risking death in battle or by disease in the name of God and of the Catholic Church but committed such crimes along the way. The Eastern Orthodox Church can justly complain of Crusaders perpetrating genocidal crimes in the East. Pope Gregory XVI in about 1830 ghettoized Rome's Jews when Rome was governed by him as part of the Papal States.

To admit such misdeeds and many others is not self-abasement and is not slobbering. Rather it is the candid admission by Catholics of the historical and immoral record of SOME Catholics.

Catholic misbehavior is not limited to that against Jews. If the homosexual pedophile scandals of recent decades teach us anything, they teach us that we must be ever vigilant against the enemy within rather than making believe that there are no enemies within. Further, we humans are all sinners (save Mary and Jesus, both of whom were Jews). As such, we all crucified Christ (save Mary and Jesus) and that responsibility does fall but not at all uniquely on Annas and Caiaphas and their little mob so subject to their demagoguery. They were the immediate occasion but we all (including Christians) were the cause through our own respective sins.

If you would be honest with yourself, you will have to admit that I have a "grip." If someone Jewish were to admit the truth of the shameful role played by Annas and Caiaphas, that would not make the person anti-Jewish but would rather serve as an example of candor and honesty.

27 posted on 10/21/2011 6:21:07 PM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline, Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club: Burn 'em Bright!!!)
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