Posted on 09/26/2011 8:26:15 AM PDT by bkaycee
I’d rather live like Jesus died for my sins and I accept Him as my personal savior. The Hell thing becomes pretty irrelevant for me
That's the way it should be... but it is not the way everybody sees it. Imagine someone is driving down the road, past a "wrong way" sign, towards the proverbial bridge that is down. You are saying that, unless I stop them because they ignored the "wrong way" sign, I have no business stopping them! If I stopped them because they are going to fall in the river, I am guilty of fearmongering, right? Yes, if they had obeyed the traffic sign they bridge down would be irrelevant... but the fact is they didn't and if I don't stop them they are going to get killed. I'll stop them first, then I might point out the traffic sign. Same here, if someone comes to Jesus out of fear from hell, there's plenty of time for that person to later on understand what Jesus did and follow Him out of love! But I won't stop hollering "the bridge is down" or "hell is eternal" for as long as people are heading to their doom.
If you say a steer was slaughtered in a slautherhouse that existed for 100 years, it does not mean the first steer was slaughtered for that long. The steer did “stay slaughtered” though, for at least that long. ;->
Maybe that's your problem, you are trying to understand God! Do you remember Isa 55:8-9? “ For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD. “ For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts."
—Maybe that’s your problem, you are trying to understand God!—
Well, thats not really the case here. I am trying to understand what he is communicating to us in His Word. And since He made the effort, I figure there is something He is trying to tell me.
Also, I am a VERY black and white thinker. I believe that issues are like black and white newspaper photographs. EVERYTHING is black and white. Even the “gray areas”, for if you look at them through a magnifying glass you will see that they are made up of individual black and white dots (actually black dots on white). So if I see an area as “gray”, it means I need to break it down further to its black and white components.
And likewise with the slaughterhouse analogy. I am saying that people infer things from God’s Word that are really not there. If I say I paint a fence blue for all eternity do I mean I spend eternity painting it blue, or that I paint it once and it “stays blue” for all eternity. I think that is actually what is being said about Hell and the lake of fire. People (in whatever post “first ressurection” form they take) are thrown into the lake of fire, to be destroyed and they stay destroyed, never to be heard from again.
But those who accept Jesus death and resurrection as the complete and perfect sacrifice as a covering for their sins will enjoy eternal LIFE in the presence of the Lord for all eternity.
One is called death and the other is called life. Those words have very “black and white” meaning. Death is an ending. A ceasing to exist. It is not “eternal life” in suffering. It is the opposite of life. And I don’t get into Pat Robertson’s twisting of the meaning of words by calling something a “form of death”. Death is death, within the context of the subject.
For mankind, post this life, there are two possibilities. It is black and white: 1. Eternal life in the presence of the Lord. 2. Eternal punishment - death. Ceasing to exist in any form whatsoever. The body dies when you go to the grave, whether Christian or not. What is left dies in the lake of fire if your sins are not covered via the blood of Christ.
Sorry. I didn’t mean to get so wordy. It just sort of flowed...
And to clarify, everything above is offered in the spirit of “opinion”. With further study, it is possible that some of that opinion could change. It is where I am now, though.
—You are saying that, unless I stop them because they ignored the “wrong way” sign, I have no business stopping them! If I stopped them because they are going to fall in the river, I am guilty of fearmongering, right?—
I admit it does sound like that is what I am saying, but it is really not. Yes, I think people should be warned of the outcome of their life as they are currently living it. But the way I see it is that I can warn them of the impending disaster and offer them a better way. But, to expand the analogy, it is not merely to tell them to turn around. Rather it is to tell them that there is a better road - one that takes them to a relationship with their creator - or they can continue on the road that they are on and come to an end. There is no “turning around” as I see it. There is merely taking a fork in the road before you get to the bridge.
I like to use Ecclesiastes to explain this to people that are not Christian, but open to its teachings. Eccleistes is actually my favorit OT book and reminds me a bi of the movie “The Sixth Sense” in that the twist at the end causes the reader to see the whole book from a completely different perspective than when they were first reading.
The book of Ecclesiastes basically says people eat and drink and enjoy the fruits of their labor. And, without Christ, they then die. IOW, they are like animals. And I sometimes wonder if that is what is meant when we are referred to as the “natural” man.
And that, coupled with the message of Christ sums up what I like to share with non-believers.
Only regret is that I haven't always lived with that goal in mind.
—I have a terminal illness. Changed how I live my life each day. I want to me the Master with a clean and pure heart.
Only regret is that I haven’t always lived with that goal in mind.—
I infer from your post that your motive is not to avoid Hell, but a desire to be with the Father. Am I correct?
I will confess that although I do not have a terminal illness, as I get older and in a very real sense face my own mortality, I am experiencing a shadow of what you probably are. I think it is changing both of our lives in the same way, being Christians. I think it also changes the life of the agnostic, but can, for obvious reasons, go either way. They either cling to the only thing they have - this life - with every breath, or they search for their Creator and a relationship with Him.
—You are over analyzing. The scriptures are very clear regarding Heaven and Hell.—
It is funny you say that, because that is what I said to someone regarding their position about eternal suffering. I told him it is really not there. That he is inferring it through over-analyzing.
I agree that the Bible is as clear as God is willing to be about Heaven and Hell, but we seem to mess it up pretty well in our interpretation of the meaning of the words. Maybe that issue is why there are so many different churches. We all over-analyze stuff. I mean, the bible is very clear that a baptism is dunkin in water, and yet there are plenty of churches that just sprinkle water on people. Go figure. ;->
No, you are denying what is written in scripture. Look at the chapters in Revelation to see what happens to those who are not written in the lambs book of life. “Thrown into the pit” is not simply “ended”.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
What happens to a piece of paper that is cast into a lake of fire? For that matter, what happens to a human body that is cast into a lake of fire?
Or a pit?
What does the word “death” mean to you? Christians are offered “eternal life”. What of those that do not spend eternity with Christ. Are they offered “eternal life in death”? That sounds a bit like an oxymoron when you understand the meaning of the individual words in the sentence. And Pat Robertson notwithstanding, it is not a “type of death”.
Read this and let me know what you think. It discusses the points you make:
http://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php
I read 3 things here:
(1)The beast (Anti Christ) and the false prophet have been in the Lake of Fire since Rev. 19:21, one thousand years earlier. They have not burned yet!
(2) They will be tormented forever and ever. This is the same Greek word used to describe the eternal blessings of the redeemed and the eternal nature of God. If it means eternal, and forever and ever in one case, it sure means the same in the other.
(3)Those who have not accepted Jesus as their Savior will be cast in the same lake of fire. Since Anti Christ and the false prophet are men, I must assume that it is possible for all men to be tormented forever and ever.
You sound like one who spiritualizes Revelation, e.g. "tormented" doesn't really mean tormented, and the flames of hell are just a symbol. Let's assume that's right. All symbols are poor representations of a larger reality, so if the flames/eternity of hell are symbolic, you know the "real thing" would be much worse.
Worst case, join a Seven Day Adventist Church. You'll be surrounded by people who think like you do. But I hope you never have a reason to remember this discussion!
I heard one guy on the radio discussing the “eternal fire”. Long story short - he came to the conclusion that this “fire” is the presence of God. He had some special word for the shining “energy” mentioned in the Old Testement but I forget what it was. But the same thing that Moses protected his eyes from, the pillar of fire, etc. The idea that in the end - God’s total power and total holiness will be shining everywhere.
And that is good for those that believe and love God. Not so much if you hate God - to be in the total, overwhelming presence of something/someone that you hate.
Seems to me that there are some problems with this idea. But I thought it was an interesting take on it.
There are two Greek words in the New Testament translated death. Thanatos - General word for "death" or meaning the separation of the soul from the body and Nekros - Refers to dead body, corpse. Death has also been referred to as “separation” as in Eph. 4:18;
Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
So death does not mean the annihilation.
>> For that matter, what happens to a human body that is cast into a lake of fire?<<
At the resurrection people are not given this physical body, they are given “immortal bodies”.
Matt 25:46—"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Here is a quote from the site you suggested.
How can one imagine for a moment that the God who gave his Son to die for sinners because of his great love for them would install a torture chamber somewhere in the new creation in order to subject those who reject him to everlasting pain?"
That is the humanistic base for trying to deny the existence of an eternal place of torment. There hope is that if you don’t accept Christ as savior you don’t get “eternal life” with Him but you aren’t punished forever. Your punishment only takes a short time and then it’s just over and your gone. No long term suffering. It’s a mechanizm to protect from the horror of envisioning those who they know didn’t believe and “in case” they don’t make it that it won’t be as bad as some say.
You say that God wouldn’t punish someone for eternity. If you say you are a Christian then you already believe that God will punish for eternity. God is goint to eternally torment the Devil and all the angels that followed him.
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. So unless you deny scripture you already believe that God will torment “day and night forever and ever. Remember that the angels are also created by God just as we are. By this you must agree that your premise that God would not do that is wrong.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
There again, even you claim that those are only the people who took the mark of the best, is evidence that there is torment forever and ever.
Mt 25:46 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Christians are promised eternal life those who deny Christ are promised eternal torment or death (separation from God).
—You sound like one who spiritualizes Revelation, e.g. “tormented” doesn’t really mean tormented, and the flames of hell are just a symbol—
That would be incorrect. I do believe there is symbolism, to be sure, but I tend to be a literalist. But Revelation is a very unique book, as any shcolar who teaches on the subject will tell you. There is clearly a LOT of symbolism there compared to most of the bible.
Regarding the three things:
—(1)The beast (Anti Christ) and the false prophet have been in the Lake of Fire since Rev. 19:21, one thousand years earlier. They have not burned yet! —
The wording there is sketchy (strongs G928). There is a question about the tense of the text regarding their presence there. Also, regarding their “not burned yet”, see my notes on eternity in the next part.
—(2) They will be tormented forever and ever. This is the same Greek word used to describe the eternal blessings of the redeemed and the eternal nature of God. If it means eternal, and forever and ever in one case, it sure means the same in the other.—
A couple of things here. First, we are talking about “eternal” or “eternity” and what that actually means. I’ve used the phrase “Time is a current that flows in an ocean called “eternity”. When I look at the description of eternity in its various uses in the Bible, it sounds almost like a place “outside of time” as we know time. Again, the bible’s discussion of it is a bit like talking about the color “red” to people who only see in black and white. Second, Satan is very different from man, as you pointed out
—(3)Those who have not accepted Jesus as their Savior will be cast in the same lake of fire. Since Anti Christ and the false prophet are men, I must assume that it is possible for all men to be tormented forever and ever.—
I think one could make that assumption. I also think one could assume that when they are thrown into the lake of fire they would be consumed.
Thing is, I don’t think any position on a major tenet of Christianity should be placed on a single verse, and I also confess that when discussing end times prophesy and eternity that I can not claim to have the only correct understanding of it. But when taken with the context of what I understand of God’s personality and what the words “death” and “life” mean, I don’t see how those that do not receive eternal life will remain alive. They will be, well, dead.
Did you read the article to which I posted?
I agree with CynicalBear that denying the existence of an eternal place of torment gives hope that you "won't be punished forever". And that tells me who does that theory come from... the great deceiver, Satan himself! It is to his advantage to get people to believe that hell does not exist, or is not a literal place of torment, or at the very least does not last forever. Many will be deceived and will find out how wrong they were when it's too late for them!
Who are they? They are Satan, AntiChrist and the false prophet. The last 2 ones are men, yet they are tormented forever and ever.
Revelation is a very unique book, as any shcolar who teaches on the subject will tell you. There is clearly a LOT of symbolism there
Stick with the golden rule for interpreting prophecy: "'Take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the context indicate otherwise.' There's no reason in Rev. 20 to assume that the lake of fire is anything else than just that, a lake of fire!
Given that scenario, now what would be the consequences of the penalty for breaking any law all being the same? You get the same punishment for speeding, jaywalking, bank robbery, or murder.
Don’t complain to me... you need to address the One who gave the law!
There was no complaint, just an invitation to explore the consequences of the the analogy.
The reaction was interesting, though.
Excellent
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