Which Came First: New Testament or the Church?

Journey to Orthodoxy ^ | May 8, 2011 | Fr. James Bernstein

[Cronos]

Gutenburg did get the Bible printed, as a Catholic he unwittingly contributed mightily to the Reformation.

true enough.

btw, "papist" is a slur -- if you wish to refer to us as Catholics it would be nice, thank you.

"admit to anything" -- admit to what, per se? We didn't admit that "Gutenburg was not Catholic" because it was false. What other pieces of history do you have?

[Cronos]

I've see the entire gamut of stuff from crusades to the Spanish Inquisition etc. -- all of these had bad things in them and yes, a lot of folks including clerics right up to the Pope frankly, sinned, however most accounts are:

1. one-sided to say that the Catholics of that day and age were acting against poor innocent victims -- again, note, yes, cases did happen of innocents killed, but let's keep in mind the atrocities on both sides and also the date at which this happened -- I've defended Luther (for instance) from being called an anti-semite because of his later tracts against Jews because he was writing from a different age from ours and he was also more against the religion rather than the race -- that's a fine difference from the horrors of '41-'45
2. Don't keep in mind the time -- the genocide of the Nazis, of the Soviets, of the Turks etc. were horrifying to us to a large extent because this happened in supposedly civilized times. In contrast, the Mongol genocideS were from a different day and time. More importantly, we should judge people by the time they were from if we look at things secularly. From a religious stand-point, of course things are different
3. Spin, spin, spin -- I see spin on all sides of the conflict -- there are stories about Calvinists by Lutherans say and vice-versa. To take a secular example, the Brits were first very grateful to the Republic of the Netherlands which helped it's fellow Calvinist state out and which trained the British in their trading practise and William III WAS the King of Orange as well, but the British attitude to the Dutch was changed during their wars and "Dutch" became a curse word. Does this mean that the Dutch of the 1700s were worse than the Dutch of the 1600s? No.

   Ditto also the way in which the Brits changed their attitudes from 1913 to 1914 regarding the French (whom they had fought for 1000 odd years, on and off) and the Germans (with whom they felt a kinship) -- why the troops going off to France in 1914 were a bit befuddled and thought they were out to attack the froggies!

[sasportas]

You just made my point. You ask what piece of history Catholics won’t admit to, and you won’t even admit to the term Papacy. When the historical line of authoritarian Popes is a major flashpoint between Catholics and Protestants.

Why would it be a slur to you? I don’t get it. Isn’t it you folks who claim the Popes as successors of Peter? Your alleged first Pope? Sounds like “Papacy” to me.

However, if there is something I’m missing in this, I’d like to hear it. If you can convince me why “Papist” is a slur, I might consider not using it.

[Cronos]

Where did you use the term "Papacy" -- you used the term "Papist" which is a slur. If you want to read on why this is a slur, this shows that you need to check up on history a bit. Here, just for starters is what wikipedia says

Papist is a term, usually disparaging or an anti-Catholic slur, referring to the Catholic Church, its teaching, practices or adherents. It was coined during the English Reformation to denote a Christian whose loyalties were to the Pope, rather than to the Church of England. Over time, however, it came to mean one who supported Papal authority over all Christians and thus became a popular term, especially among Anglicans and Presbyterians.

[Cronos]

So, you using that term has just the same connotations as a Moslem calling me an "infidel pig". Quite insulting, yet the Moslem would say Why would it be a slur to you? I don’t get it. Isn’t it you folks who claim to not follow Islam

[Cronos]

The correct term is Catholic with a capital "c" namely any one belonging to the 23 churches sui iuris in full communion with the Bishop of Rome.

Just as if you are Baptist, that does not mean others don't baptise, but one uses the upper case "b" to denote the Baptists as opposed to say "Congregationalists"

[sasportas]

Sorry, Cronos, I don’t buy it. I suppose the next thing we’ll see is Wikipedia claiming “pontificate” is a slur. Making the high and mighty claims you guys make, you are going to have to realize very accurate and descriptive words like “Papists” are going to come to the fore on these free wheeling FR RCC vs Protestant threads.

Mormons would rather be called “Latter Day Saints,” however, the book of Mormon is the central issue to Christians, therefore it will always be Mormonism and Mormons.

Likewise, you guys. You’d rather be called Catholics, however, the primacy of Rome with it’s Papal succession allegedly going back to Peter is the central issue to Protestants. And will always remain so. Therefore it will always be Papacy and Papists.

While I am at it, I have a real problem with you guys calling yourselves “the” church, similarly, with your use of catholic with a capital “c.” You are neither. I suppose you can add that to your list also.

[Cronos]

it’s not wikipedia — check the history. Your usage of the term is just like a Moslem calling me an Infidel pig. If you want to use a definitive term then the term is Catholic. If you want to act like a Moslem then use the term you use currently.

[Natural Law]

"Your usage of the term is just like a Moslem calling me an Infidel pig."

That there are so many derogatory and offensive terms for Catholics and so few for Protestants speaks volumes about Protestants. That they persist in using them speaks even more.

[Cronos]

you're mixing cause and effect. It is BECAUSE of Christ's death and resurrection that one can be saved through baptism.

Acts 2:38,

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16;

16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.

Rom. 6:1–4;

1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

1 Cor 6:11,

11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God

1 Cor 12:13;

13 For we were all baptized by[a] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Gal. 3:26–27;

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ

Eph. 5:26;

to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word,

Col. 2:11–12;

11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh[a] was put off when you were circumcised by[b] Christ,
12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Titus 3:5;

5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

One cannot even say this was a symbol -- look at all of the examples above, look at the language, consistently same the same in each, that in baptism we are saved and buried with Christ, washed of our sins by this and born again

Remember, the words of Jesus Christ Himself in Matthew 28:19

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

[Cronos]

Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved."
Mk 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that "we too might walk in newness of life."
Rom 6:4

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

; Rom 4:25

25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

[Cronos]

Titus 3:5

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

John 3:5

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

1216"This bath is called enlightenment, because those who receive this [catechetical] instruction are enlightened in their understanding . . . ." Having received in Baptism the Word, "the true light that enlightens every man," the person baptized has been "enlightened," he becomes a "son of light," indeed, he becomes "light" himself:
Jn 1:9

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

1 Thess 5:5

5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Heb 10:32

32But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

Eph 5:8

8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

[Cronos]

And you can see that this is what the New Testament Church believed and practised

From the very day of Pentecost the Church has celebrated and administered holy Baptism. Indeed St. Peter declares to the crowd astounded by his preaching: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Apostles offer Baptism to anyone who believed in Jesus: Jews, the God-fearing, pagans.
Acts 2:41

41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 8:12-13

12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Acts 10:48

48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 16:15

15And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Always, Baptism is seen as connected with faith: "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household," St. Paul declared to his jailer in Philippi. And the narrative continues, the jailer "was baptized at once, with all his family." Acts 16:31-33

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.