THESE are not "words of Jesus!
Posted on 03/21/2011 7:01:14 PM PDT by Paragon Defender
I find that most interesting.
A little background, I'm an ex-mormon, was quite active for some years, had a temple recommend, was a melchizidek ph, sealed to my mormon spouse (still very active), son born under the covenant, etc.
I left mormonism due to a variety of factors, but the primary one being that I do not believe that man can become a "God", nor that "God" was once a man. There are other factors, but I think you get the point.
As far as "bashing" or "belittling", etc. I would ask; What qualifies as debate vs. bashing, or anti-mormonism? When one is posting from legitimate LDS sources and then linking to the source, how can things be misleading or taken out of context?
If I posted my opinion, that's one thing. But linking directly to LdS sources is clearly another, would you agree?
I seem to recall responding to you once before and not getting a response. It's likely I'm mistaken, if so, my apologies.
There are many things in your post that I disagree with, nothing that personally offended. That is why I asked if you were willing to debate them, not "argue" per se. Although, I can see where many may have a hard time with "debate" vs. "argument" when the line can be so thin.
I know a lot about where you're coming from. I'm there, but from a slightly different perspective/direction, I'm an apostate to the mormon church. My wife and I have our differences, we have some discussions now and then about theology and doctrine, but we can do so without it becoming heated.
I will hold my "fire" so to speak, I don't want an otherwise amicable interaction to devolve. I would like to offer this partial response to your previous post though. No reply or response required or solicited, just "food for thought".
[JAKraig] - ”I don’t fail to see evil in Mormons because of my wife, although I believe her to be a very true Saint. She tries hard to live her religion, I wish I was as good a person as her. Mind you I try to be a good person, I just don’t think I am willing to put as much effort into it as she.”
I agree with your sentiments in regards to my wife. I truly believe she's a wonderful person, otherwise, why would I be married to her? But something in your statement struck me.
Keyword = “effort”. How much “effort” JA? I’m married to a mormon, she's a temple worker, so that in and of itself should indicate to any who are familiar, how faithful she is. I see how much “effort” is expended and then I hear my wife tell me things like; “I hope I’ve done enough to get to heaven.” “I pray that I’m good enough to get to heaven.”, etc. Is this what is taught in the Bible? That believers in Christ must go through all this “effort” and still remain in doubt? I don’t believe that is the sign of a loving and merciful God. To keep His children confused. Satan is the author of confusion. God is clear on the matter;
John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
No “effort”, no works, once you truly have a change of heart, your "works" are an outward manifestation of your conversion. I’ve been trying to teach my wife this for sometime, yet she is caught in the Chinese finger trap of Mormonism. She has to believe in the “restoration” or all of her “efforts” have been for naught. Mormons believe you must earn “credit” and that Jesus will pay the balance on the “debt owed”, but cannot nor will not tell any at what point you know you’ve done “enough. IOW, you’ll only find out once you reach judgment.
Grace is a matter of recieving by faith. You cannot earn it. Nothing you do will merit you more of it. There is no greater sacrifice than what Jesus did on the cross. And thanks be to God- you can simply receive that by faith. And faith is a posture of rest. Not of work. It's like saying to our kids at Christmas, "Here is a great gift I'm giving you. It's free after all you can do. You do not deserve it. It's so nice you can never pay for it. Now go get me all of your money and do extra chores and we'll call it even." That's not much of a free gift, is it?
That is what I find offensive with mormonISM, that they have attached a "price" to the Grace that God gives freely.
FRegards,
SZ
Having been “there”, and now being “here”, I can emphathize with the difficulties one is confronted with when one sees beliefs held by a dear one being seemingly “abused”.
But at the same time, I’ve come to know that no matter how much I love my family, I am under an obligation as a Christian to contend for them based on my faith. Mormonism impacts me and my family directly.
What I’ve learned since leaving mormonism compels me to be a vocal PITA.
Many don’t like that.
“I hope I’ve done enough to get to heaven.” “I pray that I’m good enough to get to heaven.”, etc
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I have never heard my wife say such a thing. She Follows God. She wants to do all she can because of His love for her by allowing himself to take upon Himself her sins and everyone else’s. I don’t think she worries about going to Heaven, she worries about me making it there.
To Mormons there are different levels of Heaven (I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know) and they all want to sit at the highest level. For many, probably your wife included, only the best will do. For them sitting in the presence of God is all that will satisfy them. They realize that they could do less and still go to Heaven. They also believe that in Heaven there are many mansions and they want a good one. I guess the way I say that it sounds offensive, I don’t mean it to. I think their ideas are pure enough. It can’t hurt to be good. I don’t think they think of Heaven as a prize but as an opportunity to continue advancing.
They think that the promise to Abraham was to have a continuation of his seed so that his descendants would be as countless as the grains of sand on the sea shores or the stars in the sky. Mormons think they can share in that promise but only if they go to the highest degree of Heaven. The Heaven they believe in is totally different than other faiths. Their continuing to grow and progress with their spouse or spouses has a lot to desire when you think about it. If we were abducted by aliens and sent to a world where we could have every pleasure we could ever desire and never have to work at some point, perhaps after thousands of years it would seem limiting, like prison, like they were dammed. Without children to watch grow and progress life would be a lot different than it is here now.
I don’t know what we will find in Heaven, the Mormons say they do and it seems nobody else much talks about it. If my wife is right I will be there with her. While everybody talks about how they say only Mormons will be there their whole reason for Temples is to make sure that everyone can be. My wife is a Temple Worker too. She is convinced that somehow in the next life people like me will see the errors of our ways when we have a chance to fully understand “The Gospel” and we’ll come around.
I personally would love to think that I could be with my wife forever. I would hate to have to get used to somebody else. In the rest of Christendom there are no spouses in Heaven. It is a big difference but I don’t think it hurts to believe in it or hope for it.
I personally don’t worry too much about Heaven or Hell. If God is Just and He does what He says He will do in the New Testament I will be accepted by Him and when the Judgment day comes and everybody sees how bad a person I was The Lord will put His arm around me and proclaim that I am His. That He purchased me with His blood. I will not have to follow the father of lies into the pit prepared for him and his followers. All that being said I don’t have a clue as to what to expect from that point, I just know that making it to that point will be a good thing and not making it to that point will not be a good thing.
What The Savior did was unbelievably unselfish. I could not in good faith say I believe in him and not try to follow him. In other words if I don’t have any “good works” then I simply don’t have any faith.
Any Mormons who think they will get a better seat because they went to church more often than another is sadly not understanding of Mormon teachings. My wife says we all have different abilities. We can’t all do the same thing. The important thing to her and she says The Savior is that we are moving in the right direction, that is towards The Savior and not away. She says it is like a ladder, as long as we are going up we are ok.
To her whenever a church leader asks her to do something, like work in the Temple, to her it is the same as The Savior asking. She loves the Savior, she would do anything for Him. She is not doing anything for a better seat but simply out of love. I really believe this about her.
Not all Mormons are as good or as understanding of Mormon Doctrines as my wife. She is special, but most I have met have this love of the Savior just dripping off of them. So to keep beating a dead horse, how can anyone who loves The Savior this much not be a Christian?
If being a Christian is only defined as being a “Roman” Christian then that is something different. Mormons do not accept the Apostles Creed, but then again nobody did before the 3rd century and surely we would call the early Christians, Christian. Mormons realize they are square pegs in a round world. They don’t seem to mind being called “different”, but you can really get under their skin when you call them non Christian.
There are probably Mormons around here, I apologize if I have said something that mis portrays Mormons, I don’t mean to. I would certainly not mean to make any fun of their beliefs and apologize if I have said something that offends. I really do believe that Mormons are as a rule good, God fearing people.
“l am a Christian and I strongly disagree with you. They might not believe what you believe but they are surely Christians. they act like Christians are supposed to act, they teach Jesus Christ to all the world without getting paid. they are perhaps not traditional Christians as those descended from the Roman Church, but Christians they are! I find your warning very distasteful! “
Then you do not know the scriptures, FRiend.
How can a group that believes in MILLIONS OF GODS be Christian? God Himself says there is ONE GOD.
How can a group that believes Jesus is a created being be
Christian? The Bible teaches He is God and has always been God.
How can a group that denies the Gospel of Grace and substitutes mormonic worthiness be Christian?
Any cult that denies the God of the Bible, denies the Son
and denies the Gospel is a heresy worthy of the strongest
condemnation. You were warned. If you do not heed the
warning, that is up to you.
best,
ampu
“I don’t fail to see evil in Mormons because of my wife, although I believe her to be a very true Saint. She tries hard to live her religion, I wish I was as good a person as her. Mind you I try to be a good person, I just don’t think I am willing to put as much effort into it as she.”
That explains it all!
Emotion has trumped objective truth. You are well on your
way to becoming a cultist yourself...
In fact, by his own words JAKraig has great regard for Mormons and Mormonism.
Has he ever said why exactly he doesn’t make his wife eternally happy by becoming one? Why, if he thinks it is such a wonderful Christian religion, doesn’t he support his wife?
You won’t get an argument out of me regarding mormons being good folks. I know all that you mention and more.
I’m sorry to say, based on your current status and mormon teachings, you will not be with your wife in heaven unless she chooses to come down to your “level of heaven”. Which means she will leave the presence of “god”. It does “hurt to believe in it” in the sense that attention is given to rituals and beliefs that are not biblical.
The Bible also teaches that we will not be married in heaven. Are Jesus’ words to be dismissed because JS said otherwise? For mormons, that is the “hinge point”. One must have complete confidence and faith in JS in order to believe in what mormonism teaches/believes.
I’ve had mormons use rationalizations such as “If x then y.” or “It only makes sense, right?”. No, it doesn’t always work this way. That’s why we’re to test what we hear against the Bible. But here is where mormonism creates their “out”. AoF - “as far as it is translated correctly.”. Yet none can tell any which parts are and are not “translated correctly”. The dichotomies present within the doctrine are just too many and too much.
But for me, the entire premise of mormonism is built upon a foundation of sand. A foundation that begins with a very dubious “prophet” of extremely questionable, behavior, morals and beliefs.
The entire complex of mormonism is suspect because of him. All that aside, trying to expose mormons to facts either hidden from them or not looked for, shouldn’t be construed as “bashing”, “hate”, “antimormonjihad”, etc.
SLC sends out 52k+ missionaries a year, not counting all the ward and stake missionaries to tell their message with impunity. To tell others that Christianity was in complete apostasy for centuries and that all they hold dear is false.
Why can’t a few folks in the FR Religion forum discuss/debate/reveal what they know about mormonism without being denigrated or being accused of many vile things?
I’m recently removed from the LdS church, so many things LdS are anathema to me. When I see them, I want to correct or dispel what I see or read. At first, I was very club fisted or ham handed. Now, not so much, I hope.
I don’t want to belabour the point, or as a Catholic FReeper said to me once, give you the impression that I’m trying to “mug you” into conversion.
Blessings to you and yours,
SZ
Then you do not know the scriptures, FRiend.
How can a group that believes in MILLIONS OF GODS be Christian? God Himself says there is ONE GOD.
How can a group that believes Jesus is a created being be
Christian? The Bible teaches He is God and has always been God.
How can a group that denies the Gospel of Grace and substitutes mormonic worthiness be Christian?
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I really need to go home.
Perhaps they believe in Billions of gods or Trillions I don’t know. However many they believe in there is only one God that matters to them, that is the God of this creation, of this universe and of His only begotten Son. In all my dealings with them I have never heard them mention any other god. They don’t know of any other god. The whole idea of other gods comes from what they say we would be if we inherit all that God had. Christ says that we will be joint heirs with Him. Is Jesus Christ God, is He God because He inherits all His Father has? If he were God why would he need to inherit anything from anybody? If we inherit all that His Father has along with Him, just like Christ says we will then what are we? Certainly we are not God but if we become like Christ and like God then perhaps their doctrine is not so repugnant, we would be gods compared to earthlings surely.
Even God called Jesus His Firstborn.
Mormons don’t for a minute deny the Gospel of Grace. They don’t however believe in “Once saved always saved” that many Christians preach. Get saved so you can commit all the lechery you want without having to pay for it. NO, they don’t believe that. They do believe that no matter what you do you can never be saved except for the good grace of our Savior Jesus Christ.
I appreciate your not beating me up. I appreciate a civil conversation.
If my wife has to come down to get me I am probably lost :)
You are correct that if you can’t believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet then you can’t be a Mormon.
I don’t have any problem with “as far as it is translated correctly” because every church seems to have it’s unique translation or meaning of various scriptures.
I have listened to many preachers what most of them have in common is that that they have a lot of unique ideas.
I remember at my fathers funeral at our church (Methodist at the time), the minister asked if I had any particular scriptures I would like for him to use. I did, it was about Job knowing that although worms eat his eyes . . . etc. that he would see God with his own eyes. The minister said he could not use that scripture because there would be some who would think that meant that there would be a literal resurrection. I then gave him a few more (actually at least 10) that referred to a literal resurrection and he refused to use any of them. From that point on I have had little to do with ministers and little trust in what they have to say as far as translating or interpreting the scriptures. I can read. Sometimes when I read the spirit whispers to me of the truth of what I am reading and how I understand it and I will not have another person tell me how I don’t understand it after that happens.
So “as far as translated correctly” I understand, it is not an issue to me.
Thanks for not beating up on me.
Now why would I do that? ;^)
"I appreciate a civil conversation."
As do I.
Sorry to hear about your father. I guess that's why I'm not a proponent of "organized religion". Too many doctrines, teachings, etc. that can be used for all the wrong reasons.
"I can read. Sometimes when I read the spirit whispers to me of the truth of what I am reading and how I understand it and I will not have another person tell me how I don’t understand it after that happens."
Like you, I figure if I stick with what's in the Bible, I can't go wrong. Although I attend a non-denom church that teaches out of the Bible and uses some very well known and respected Christian writers like A.J. Tozer to supplement.
As far as the "translation" issue being anathema to an ex-mo like me, I guess it would make more sense if one had been "conditioned" if you will, to place more faith and credence in the BoM vs. the Bible due to the AoF. It's all still very "fresh" for me.
Blessings,
SZ
If you believe in more than one God, you have denied the most important thing God revealed to Israel.
If you believe in more than one God, you have distorted who God is - omnipotent. As such, you have distorted the image of God and made Him into an idol.
Mormonism is a combination of pagan beliefs, condemned heresies and a distortion of the image of God - yet you claim to be a Christian and you defend Mormonism.
THESE are not "words of Jesus!
I shake my head in disbelief, you have it appears zero understanding of mormonISM and what they teach and profess.
Either you are desperate that your wife is not lost or your profession of being a Christian is bogus. I haven’t decided as yet which.
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