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To: Paragon Defender
However, what Jesus’ immortal spirit did after His death and before His Resurrection is a mystery to all but the Latter-day Saints.

So the Latter-day Saints have communion with those spirits who reside in Hades, rather than with God the Holy Spirit who indwells every believer, providing a temple for Christ to indwell believers!

Interesting that they proclaim such an association, while denying the indwelling He provides to every believer through faith in Christ.

5 posted on 03/18/2011 9:13:26 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr; All
So the Latter-day Saints have communion with those spirits who reside in Hades, rather than with God the Holy Spirit who indwells every believer, providing a temple for Christ to indwell believers! Interesting that they proclaim such an association...

If you want to look under the hood of the REAL Mormon associations with the underworld, see:

The October Other-World Series:

The 1840s: The Nauvoo Pentagrams

The 1830s: The Occult and the Restoration Story: Joseph Smith and RLDS/LDS Origins

The Spirit World, Our Next Home

They see dead people?

Are ghosts among us? Many believe in spirits, but churches offer stern warnings

The "familiar spirit" in 2 Nephi 26:16

The early 1800s:

JOSEPH SMITH, JR: Founder and first "Prophet, Seer, and Revelator" (1805-1844)

JOSEPH SMITH’S INVOLVEMENT WITH MAGIC, MASONRY, AND THE OCCULT

GOD-MEN AND SPIRITUAL VEGETABLES: The Occult Worldview of Mormonism

Early Mormonism and the Magic World View

6 posted on 03/18/2011 9:33:46 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Cvengr; All
So the Latter-day Saints have communion with those spirits who reside in Hades, rather than with God the Holy Spirit who indwells every believer, providing a temple for Christ to indwell believers! Interesting that they proclaim such an association...

Mormon "prophet" Brigham Young said: 'Where is the spirit world? It is right here' (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 376)," the LDS Church's official Web site states.

When you look up the Journal of Discourses original quote, right after Brigham Young says the "spirit world...is right here" he adds: Do the good and evil spirits go together? Yes, they do. Do they both inhabit one kingdom? Yes, they do. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 368, June 22, 1856)

Then seven sentences later, Brigham Young adds: When the spirits of mankind leave their bodies, no matter whether the individual was a Prophet or the meanest person that you could find, where do they go? To the spirit world. Where is it? I am telling you. The spirit of Joseph, I do not know that it is just now in this bowery, but I will assure you that it is close to the Latter-day Saints... (same source, p. 369)

Young said these "meanest...spirits" hover "close to the Latter-day Saints..." in this close-by "Spirit World."

I know some Mormons try to play down what's in the Journal of Discourse (recordings of what their leaders said, often from the Salt Lake Tabernacle). But the fact is the official Lds Web site and many, many books published by the Mormon church constantly references the JoD.

What else did Brigham Young say in that message?

If the Lord would permit it, and it was His will that it should be done, you could see the spirits that have departed from this world, as plainly as you now see bodies with your natural eyes; as plainly as brothers Kimball and Hyde saw those wicked disembodied spirits in Preston, England. They saw devils there, as we see one another; they could hear them speak, and knew what they said. Could they hear them with the natural ear? No. Did they see those wicked spirits with their natural eyes? No. They could not see them the next morning, when they were not in the spirit; neither could they see them the day before, nor at any other time; their spiritual eyes were touched by the power of the Almighty. They said they looked through their natural eyes, and I suppose they did. Brother Kimball saw them, but I know not whether his natural eyes were open at the time or not; brother Kimball said that he lay upon the floor part of the time, and I presume his eyes were shut, but he saw them as also did brother Hyde, and they heard them speak. We may enquire where the spirits dwell, that the devil has power over? They dwell anywhere, in Preston, as well as in other places in England. Do they dwell anywhere else? Yes, on this continent; it is full of them. If you could see, and would walk over many parts of North America, you would see millions on millions of the spirits of those who have been slain upon this continent. Would you see the spirits of those who were as good in the flesh as they knew how to be? Yes. Would you see the spirits of the wicked? Yes. Could you see the spirits of devils? Yes, and that is all there is of them. They have been deprived of bodies, and that constitutes their curse, that is to say, speaking after the manner of men, you shall be wanderers on the earth, you have got to live out of doors all the time you live...You may now see people with legions of evil spirits in and around them; there are men who walk our streets that have more than a hundred devils in them and round about them, prompting them to all manner of evil, and some too that profess to be Latter Day Saints, and if you were to take the devils out of them and from about them, you would leave them dead corpses; for I believe there would be nothing left of them. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 368, June 22, 1856)

What is Brigham referencing re: "brothers Kimball and Hyde saw those wicked disembodied spirits in Preston, England?"

Well Heber C. Kimball became an Lds "apostle" and one of the top three men in the Lds hierarchy at one point in the 19th century. But before that, he was an Lds missionary to England. From reading the original sources, it appears that demons possessed Kimball and another Lds missionary, Isaac Russell, in Preston, Lancashire, England, in 1837

Here, I'll let the men's journals describe what happened. That way you have a first-hand account. BTW, these are from Mormon sources which are citing these Mormon leaders' journals:

Letter from Heber C. Kimball on the Early Lancashire work dated 2 Sep 1837:

p.5 A singular circumstance occurred before morning, which I will quote from Brother Hyde's journal, as he wrote it down. He commences as follows: "Elder [Isaac] Russell was much troubled with evil spirits and came into the room where Elder [Heber C.] Kimball and myself were sleeping and desired us to lay our hands on him and rebuke the evil spirit. I arose upon the bed and Brother Kimball got upon the floor and I sat upon the bed. We laid our hands on him and Brother Kimball rebuked and prayed for him but just before he had finished his prayer, his voice faltered and his mouth was shut and he began to tremble and reel to and fro and fell on the floor like a dead man, and uttered a deep groan. I immediately seized him by the shoulder and lifted him up, being satisfied that the devils were exceeding angry because we attempted to cast them out of Brother Russel and they made a powerful attempt upon Elder Kimball as if to dispatch him at once. They struck him senseless and he fell to the floor. Brother Russel and myself then laid our hands on Elder Kimball and rebuked the evil spirits, in the name of Jesus Christ, and immediately he recovered his strength in part so as to get up. The sweat began to roll from him most powerfully and he was almost as wet as if he had been taken out of the water. We could very sensibly hear the evil spirits rage and foam out their shame. Brother Kimball was quite weak for a day or two after. It seems that the devils are determined to destroy us...
Source: Mormon missionary history

A Mormon at another Web site (LDS Discovering Britain) said he tried to "take different accounts and jigsaw them together in chronological order."

Heber C. Kimball recalled:
“Sunday, July 30th, about daybreak, Elder Isaac Russell….came up to the third story, where Elder Hyde and myself were sleeping, and called out, ‘Brother Kimball, I want you should get up and pray for me that I may be delivered from the evil spirits that are tormenting me to such a degree that I feel I cannot live long, unless I obtain relief.”
“I had been sleeping on the back of the bed. I immediately arose, slipped off at the foot of the bed, and passed around to where he was. Elder Hyde threw his feet out, and sat up in the bed, and we laid hands on him, I being mouth, and prayed that the Lord would have mercy on him, and rebuked the devil. While thus engaged, I was struck with great force by some invisible power, and fell senseless on the floor. (Whitney p. 129-131)

Orson Hyde observed this same moment in his account:
“his [Heber's] voice faltered, and his mouth was shut, and he began to tremble and reel to and fro, and fell on the floor like a dead man, and uttered a deep groan. I immediately seized him by the shoulder, and lifted him up, being satisfied that the devils were exceedingly angry because we attempted to cast them out of Br. Russell, and they made a powerful attempt upon elder Kimball as if to dispatch him at once, they struck him senseless and he fell to the floor (Elder's p. 4)
Heber continued...

The first thing I recollected was being supported by Elders Hyde and Richards, who were praying for me; Elder Richards having followed Russell up to my room. Elder Hyde and Richards then assisted me to get on the bed, but my agony was so great I could not endure it, and I arose, bowed my knees and prayed. I then arose and sat up on the bed, when a vision was opened to our minds, and we could distinctly see the evil spirits, who foamed and gnashed their teeth at us. (Whitney p. 130-131)
Years later (1856) Heber told a congregation in the Salt Lake Tabernacle,
“I saw their hands, their eyes, and every feature of their faces, the hair on their heads, and their ears, in short they had full formed bodies.“ (Journal of Discourses Vol. 3 mar 2, 1856, p. 229)
Heber's account continued:
We gazed upon them about an hour and a half (by Willard’s watch). We were not looking towards the window, but towards the wall. Space appeared before us, and we saw the devils coming in legions, with their leaders, who came within a few feet of us. They came towards us like armies rushing to battle They appeared to be men of full stature, possessing every form and feature of men in the flesh, who were angry and desperate; and I (Kimball) shall never forget the vindictive malignity depicted on their countenances as they looked me in the eye; and any attempt to paint the scene which then presented itself, or portray their malice and enmity, would be vain. I perspired exceedingly, my clothes becoming as wet as if I had been taken out of the river. I felt excessive pain, and was in the greatest distress for sometime. (Whitney p. 130-131)
ORSON: Immediately he [Heber] recovered his strength in part, so as to get up; the sweat began to roll from him most powerfully, and he was almost as wet as if he had been taken out of the water,
(Elder’s p.4)
HEBER: We distinctly heard those spirits talk and express their wrath and hellish designs against us.
(Whitney p. 130-131)
ORSON: We could very sensibly hear the evil spirits rage and foam out their shame.”
(Elder’s p.4)
FIELDING: They could hear a sound from them, i.e the evil spirits, like the grating of teeth, quite plainly. (Fielding, p.22)
ORSON: …After you were overcome by them and had fallen, their awful rush upon me with knives, threats, imprecations, hellish grins, amply convinced me that they were no friends of mine. While you were apparently senseless and lifeless on the floor and upon the bed (after we had laid you there), I (Orson) stood between you (Heber) and the devils and fought them and contended with them face to face, until they began to diminish in number and to retreat from the room. The last imp that left turned around to me as he was going out and said, as if to apologize, and appease my determined opposition to them, ‘I never said anything against you!’ I replied to him thus: ‘It matters not me whether you have or have not; you are a liar from the beginning! In the name of Jesus Christ depart!’ He immediately left, and the room was clear. That closed the scene of devils for the time. (Whitney 131)
FIELDING: They however kept their distances, but turned their heads toward Bro. Hyde; one looking at him said distinctly, but with a murmuring tone, slowly demure, I never spoke against you. He said there seemed to be legion of them. He was alarmed, but very much disgusted. He could scarcely bear to speak of them. (Fielding, p. 23)

Source: Compiled by Peter Fagg, Discovering LDS Britain Demon Possession Description
Original sources used by Fagg included:
Elder’s Journal, Letter 1 (1837), p.4 Quoted by Barron Howard. Orson Hyde: Missionary, Apostle, Colonizer. Horizon Publishers, Bountiful, Utah. 1978 p.95.
Fielding, Joseph. Joseph Fielding Diary. Courtesy of his descendants Keith & Ilene Foulger.
Kimball., Stanley, B. On the Potter's Wheel, Diary 1.
Journal of Discourses. Volume 3. Liverpool, 1856.
Whitney, Orson F. The Life of Heber C. Kimball. Bookcraft, Utah. 1945.

Let me close with what Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie thinks about such possessions: "That persons possessed by evil spirits are subjected to the severest mental and physical sufferings and to the basest sort of degredation [sic] -- all symbolical of the eternal torment to be imposed upon those who fall under Satan's control in the world to come" (McConkie, p. 311 Doctrinal NT Commentary, Vol. I: The Gospels Bookcraft )
And: "Evil spirits can completely transform a personal physically and mentally." (same source, p. 312)

7 posted on 03/18/2011 9:41:39 PM PDT by Colofornian
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