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Locked on 02/23/2011 7:04:03 PM PST by Religion Moderator, reason:
Poster’s request |
Posted on 02/23/2011 3:05:37 PM PST by Natural Law
“It is the charisma of infallibility held by the Pope and the Magesterium that lay the authority to interpret Scripture on them.”
Great post.
I suggest you identify it as such then, NL. There is no way to know that you’ve intended for this to be an Ecumenical thread.
Ping the RM and ask that the title be modified.
It was labeled an Ecumenical Thread and for the second time in two days I have had a thread title modified my the management of FR with no notice or explanation. I guess that is what we can now expect for honest discourse.
With the tacit approval and facilitatization of the mods this has become nothing but another crap all over Catholics thread I am requesting the moderator lock it.
Guessing what my intentions were, whether by Freeper, Mod, or owner, is mind reading. Since rules and honesty do not apply I have requested that the thread be locked. I do not want to be associated with it.
I’m pretty sure this was originally labeled “Ecumenical” because I made a mental note of it to come back to and ask some questions just because it was Ecumenical. I thought I might finally get to ask and have answered a few questions without a flame war going on.
Regards
I’m not guessing when you’ve plainly stated that you intended for this to be Ecumenical, NL. Even if I were, the “no way to know” applied to me and to anyone else who didn’t know, not you.
I, for one, would prefer this thread stay open, in order to examine your commentary for reasons why it has been deemed not acceptable for the designation.
Perhaps you complained or were antagonistic in some way? Is this possible? That would fail to live up to the standard of Ecumenical from the very outset.
Post 3 indicates that NL made it an ecumenical thread.
Yes, let’s be blunt.
YOU ARE A LIAR.
Definitely not me.
This statement seems to be an abt summation of Reformed belief on the visibility of the Church “The universal Church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, which were purchased for God with Christ’s blood from [Dan 3:4; 5:19; Rev 7:9; 10:11; 11:9; 13:7; 14:6; 17:15] every tribe and tongue and people and nation.”
Which is a subset of humanity. The sacrifice of the Reformed Jesus was not good enough or sufficient enough for the salvation of all men - the limited Reformed God is only for the Reformed believers...
Ignorant baloney.
There is nothing that I have stated that has not been expressed by many of the Catholics on this site and in the written documentation of the Church. You will not get the majority of the Catholics to admit in the infallibility of the scriptures simply because it means everything else is fallible-that is every Church doctrine, every creed, every declared statement could be in error in light of the scriptures. In other words, you have to compare everything against the scriptures-sola scriptura.
Catholics are attempting to move towards a more eastern Orthodox position-one that believes scriptural teachings can evolve. However, this was never the view of the western church for over 1500 years. Even Trent declared the infallibility of the scripture. Catholics are saddled with centuries of writings that they simply wish they could make disappear.
If you don’t believe me, then please explain to me the difference between infallible and fallible writings. You will be hard press to do so. That’s because Catholics have change the meaning, watering it down so that it means nothing.
That does not change the fact that he is not considered infallible in matters of faith and morals by Reformed believers.
Please see above. If you think I’m wrong, take a crack at defining “infallibility” and “fallibility” for me as how the early fathers viewed it.
Let me be blunt in return. You are mistaken. I will offer this most impersonal of rebuttels. I am sure you will not accept it but that only shows you are not eager to learn the truth but only to persist in error.
Oh the Early Fathers in no way believed in Sola Scriptura.
Now for the Church’s teaching on Holy Scripture.
Those divinely revealed realities which are contained and presented in Sacred Scripture have been committed to writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For holy mother Church, relying on the belief of the Apostles (see John 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:19-20, 3:15-16), holds that the books of both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, with all their parts, are sacred and canonical because written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.(1) In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him (2) they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, (3) they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted. (4)”
“Church ...receives and venerates with an equal affection of piety, and reverence, all the books both of the Old and of the New Testament—seeing that one God is the author of both..”
Among the reasons for which the Holy Scripture is so worthy of commendation - in addition to its own excellence and to the homage which we owe to God’s Word - the chief of all is, the innumerable benefits of which it is the source; according to the infallible testimony of the Holy Ghost Himself, who says: “All Scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, that the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.”(6) That such was the purpose of God in giving the Scripture of men is shown by the example of Christ our Lord and of His Apostles. For He Himself Who “obtained authority by miracles, merited belief by authority, and by belief drew to Himself the multitude”(7) was accustomed in the exercise of His Divine Mission, to appeal to the Scriptures. He uses them at times to prove that He is sent by God, and is God Himself. From them He cites instructions for His disciples and confirmation of His doctrine.
“But first it must be clearly understood whom we have to oppose and contend against, and what are their tactics and their arms. Now, we have to meet the Rationalists, true children and inheritors of the older heretics, who, trusting in their turn to their own way of thinking, have rejected even the scraps and remnants of Christian belief which had been handed down to them. They deny that there is any such thing as revelation or inspiration, or Holy Scripture at all; they see, instead, only the forgeries and the falsehoods of men; they set down the Scripture narratives as stupid fables and lying stories: the prophecies and the oracles of God are to them either predictions made up after the event or forecasts formed by the light of nature; the miracles and the wonders of God’s power are not what they are said to be, but the startling effects of natural law, or else mere tricks and myths; and the Apostolic Gospels and writings are not the work of the Apostles at all. These detestable errors, whereby they think they destroy the truth of the divine Books, are obtruded on the world as the peremptory pronouncements of a certain newly-invented “free science;” a science, however, which is so far from final that they are perpetually modifying and supplementing it. And there are some of them who, notwithstanding their impious opinions and utterances about God, and Christ, the Gospels and the rest of Holy Scripture, would faro be considered both theologians and Christians and men of the Gospel, and who attempt to disguise by such honourable names their rashness and their pride.”
“For all the books which the Church receives as sacred and canonical, are written wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Ghost; and so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error, but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true”
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