Posted on 12/11/2010 4:57:42 PM PST by delacoert
We frequently hear from people who have spoken with the Mormon missionaries. Many of them have come from such discussions feeling the LDS Church was just another Christian church, with perhaps some minor unique aberrations (baptism for the dead for example). At the Mormon Church's visitor centers (Hill Cumorah, just south of Palmyra, New York, to name one) a handout, the Thirteen Articles of Faith, is presented as if it summarized the teachings of the Mormon Church. At the same centers films are shown projecting a similar idea. We have frequently been asked to read the Book of Mormon as if it contained most or all LDS teachings, the fulness of the gospel. Each year the Mormon Church presents nine pageants throughout the United States. I have personally closely observed two of these (one at Hill Cumorah, New York, the largest and the other at Nauvoo, Illinois) and I have received reports on two others. Like the other examples above, the pageants do not contain even a few of the very unique LDS teachings as listed below. We have never been given or heard of any official Mormon tract or booklet that openly and briefly summarizes all of their major teachings. In fact, I believe such a document does not exist. What are these teachings? By way of example, what follows is a list of those not found in the Book of Mormon.
1. God the Father has a body of flesh and bones. In truth the Book of Mormon teaches that God is a spirit (Mosiah 15:1-5; Alma 18:26-29, 19:25-27, 22:8-11, 31:15-38). Note in Alma 31 that the speaker who says God is a spirit is not corrected by the alleged prophet involved.
2. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are separate and distinct Gods.
3. They are one God in that they are "one in purpose."
4. God the Father was once a man like us and progressed until he became God. In reality the Book of Mormon says God has always been God from eternity to eternity (Mosiah 3:5; 2 Nephi 27:23, 29:9; Moroni 7:22, 8:18; Mormon 9:9, 19).
5. There are three levels in heaven.
6. We can progress and become Gods with "all the power, glory, dominion, and knowledge" the Father and Son have.
7. The elaborate priesthoods and organization in present day Mormonism. For example, there is no mention by name of the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthood, there are no deacons mentioned at all, there are no ordinations to any priesthood and in Moroni 6:1 those who appear to hold a priesthood office (by the present day criteria) are baptized after they show works worthy of it.
8. Our spirits and the spirit of Jesus Christ were born in the pre-existence (a pre-mortal life).
9. The "new and everlasting covenant", temple marriage and the practice of polygamy, as taught in D&C 132. In fact the practice of polygamy is condemned by the present day Mormon Church and by the Book of Mormon (Jacob 2:24, 27; Mosiah 11:2; Ether 10:5).
10. The teaching that matter is eternal and all Jesus Christ did in his creation was to organize and form it.
11. Vicarious work for the dead as now done in Mormon temples. In reality the Book of Mormon rules out such a practice (2 Nephi 26:11; Alma 5:28, 34:31-35; Mosiah 16:5, 11, 26:25-27).
12. God is married and there is a mother in heaven.
13. The sacred (to the Mormons) temple endowment ceremonies that Mormonism teaches are needed to pass through the veil to spend eternity with God.
14. That Jesus Christ atoned for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane. In fact the Book of Mormon does not even mention the Garden of Gethsemane. It says Jesus Christ died for all men on the cross (see 2 Nephi 9:5 1 Nephi 11:33; 3 Nephi 27:14).
Many of the above are needed, according to an official Mormon Church publication (Gospel Principles, pre-1986 editions, pages 291-293), to allow a person who accepts and lives them, to reach exaltation (becoming a God) in the Celestial Kingdom of God. Is it unreasonable to expect these ideas to be clearly taught prior to baptism?
A review of the six LDS missionary discussions (Each has a different title, the subtitle on each is "Uniform System For Teaching The Gospel.") shows a similar problem. These are published by the Mormon Church and Copyrighted 1986 by Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Except for items 1, 5 and 11 above, they also do not clearly teach the items in the above list. Discussion #4 is titled Eternal Progression, but it only gives an incomplete sketchy description. Perhaps the gospel of the Mormon Church excludes, or does not contain, the items not taught? But this is not the case. Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie said:
The gospel of Jesus Christ is the plan of salvation. It embraces all [bolding by this author] of the laws, principles, doctrines, rites, ordinances, acts, powers, authorities, and keys necessary to save and exalt men in the highest heaven hereafter...In the broadest sense, all truth is part of the gospel; for all truth is known to, is ordained by, and comes from Deity...(Mormon Doctrine, pages 331-332)
There are many countries in the world where the Mormon missionaries are present on a full time basis and two of the LDS scriptures (Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price) are not available in the language of that country (Church Almanac, Deseret News, 1989-1990 edition, page 202; 1993-1994 edition, pages 306, 390-395, 401). Perhaps this is just following the ideas in the direction given by Joseph Smith in June 1837.
My instructions to the brethren were, when they arrived in England, to adhere closely to the first principles of the Gospel, and remain silent concerning the gathering, the vision, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants [the Pearl of Great Price did not exist in 1837], until such time as the work was fully established, and it should be clearly made manifest by the Spirit to do otherwise. (History of the Church, 2:492).
What are the "first principles of the gospel" mentioned by Joseph Smith? In 1842, in The Articles of Faith, he said:
We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Pearl of Great Price, page 60).
But on April 6, 1844, at general conference he said:
It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did...(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith, page 345; Journal of Discourses 6:3; Gospel Principles, pre-1986 editions, pages 291-293).
Shouldn't the LDS missionaries be teaching all of the "first principles?" Why would Joseph Smith instruct the missionaries to remain silent about certain events and teachings? We are not only judged by what we say and do, we may also be evaluated by what we don't say or do, when that is appropriate. One has to wonder why the full LDS gospel is not proudly and loudly proclaimed everywhere in every country the Mormons are allowed. Why do they hold back on clear public statements on all their teachings? Some would say they first have to teach the milk of the Mormon gospel and then the meat would follow at a later date. If this is the case then why do they baptize a person into the Mormon Church before all the meat is clearly presented? Is it even fair and honest to do other wise? Mormon writer Robert J. Matthews in a different context said:
Even sharing the truth can have the effect of lying when we tell only half-truths that do not give a full picture. We can also be guilty of bearing false witness and lying if we say nothing, particularly if we allow another to reach a wrong conclusion while we hold back information that would have led to a more accurate perception. In this case it is as though an actual lie were uttered. ("`Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness'", Ensign, October 1994, page 54)
Why is the Mormon Church's leadership afraid to publicly and openly teach ALL Mormon doctrine prior to baptism? Are they fearful some of it will be labeled non-Christian and people would not join? I think this is the case.
This totality of Mormon doctrines lumped together in the Mormon plan of Salvation includes a steaming pile of heresies which include:
I am not certain what your point is. Are you defending Mormonism? Are you saying that what is being proclaimed by Mormons is a perversion of the Mormon faith?
Oy vey!
I'm not allowed to post in that thread (because of the caucus designation), so I pinged you here.
I hope that others will help to explain the half-truths that comprise the LDS answer to your earnest inquiry.
see post #4.
Come on Paragon Defender...time for your cut and paste action.
The LDS operate on a principle: milk before meat. IOW, they’ll tell you what they believe on a need-to-know basis. Thus, new converts aren’t going to learn everything right off; things will be revealed bit by bit.
So during the missionary lessons you’re not going to hear about God the Father showing up in Mary’s bedroom in Nazareth and dropping the divine hammer on her, resulting in a (not so) virgin birth 9 months later.
Christ instituted only one church, and that society was both formally and specifically a visible one.
Mt 16:18
“... upon this rock I will build my church” (Both “this rock” and “my church” are clearly singular in the Greek text.)
Jn 10:16
I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.
Jn 17:20-21
“I pray not only for them (the Apostles), but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.”
Jn 21:15-17
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, “Feed my sheep.”
Mt 28: 19
“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit”
Mk 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Well one thing mormons never say is Jesus Christ is LORD
another thing mormons never say is that Jesus is God
Another thing mormons never say is that Jesus was the Word of God
Another thing mormons never say is that Jesus is the Third Person of the Trinity
another thing mormons never say is that Jesus died on the Cross to save us
Another thing mormons never say is that Jesus was not a man who became a god...
But then if mormons were to ever say those things then mormonism might be threatened with Christianity...
and mormons couldnt have that...
I see you are one of the impressed masses /sarc
Courtesy PING to a mention of your name in #6
May have been accidentally sent to delacoert
You're not. There are no flames in the thread. I think Mr. Counter sometimes gets over-impressed with his cartoon commentary style.
If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums you will notice a pattern. There's an anti-Mormon group of people here that spends a great deal of their time attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They post regurgitated propaganda on an almost daily basis.
They have a misguided obsession. You can witness many different tactics employed that you might find quite interesting. The straw man argument is a big favorite and is frequently preceded by cherry-picking quotes or other material. After the "quotation" the attacker will misrepresent what has been said or what was meant and then attack their own interpretation.Later they will have the audacity to claim they were "only" quoting our own material.
They will of course insist ad nauseum that they are merely using our sources and are therefore innocent of any deceptive practice. LDS persons have no issue whatsoever having our scriptures or leaders quoted as long as it is presented fairly and accurately. This is rarely (if ever) done.
Another favorite is posting scripture or statements which on their own really present no dilemma. They make something out of nothing while never bringing up a single objection that hasn't been addressed a hundred times before.
You might note a couple of other tactics used to try to antagonize is the use of disrespectful or insulting terms or language and/or pictures. That's a Christlike thing to do right? Yeah I don't think so either. It does speak volumes about them though.
Sometimes they cruise the headlines of the day seeking any story that might be twisted into making the Church look bad. Anything will do, just watch the progression of posts following it and see what I mean.
After reading their posts, I invite you to seek the truth about whatever "issue" they seem to be "revealing" or "exposing". I promise that if you do so with honest intent, the "ahah" moments you will have will be many and frequent. You will start to recognize the tactics employed to cleverly twist and attack and will likely chuckle the more you see. In actuality, there's nothing new here. It's all been addressed many times before.
The latest twist in the anti-Mormon propaganda machine is to actually go to the links provided, but then they cherry pick what they want, then quote and straw man attack that. Clever. It almost appears that they are helping you, the seeker of truth out by doing some footwork for you. Not so much. Don't be insulted, look for yourself. It's not the haystack they want you to think.
Here's a few links to get your started from a different viewpoint. I have found that the vast majority of the "issues" brought up can be found and addressed at http://www.fairlds.org/ but here's more:
http://scriptures.lds.org/
http://www.lds.org
http://www.fairlds.org/
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Main_Page
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/index.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml
http://www.answeringantimormons.com/index.htm
http://promormon.blogspot.com/
Now you will likely notice the "you never address our points" posts pop up as usual. All after providing the answers just as you have here.
Sometimes it is claimed that these sites present a needle in a haystack. Far from it. But if you give up before you try you won't know will you?
Will you wear blinders too? Seek truth. Find out for yourself. Want to chat with someone on any topic? A few of these sites provide just that. So do your homework sincere seeker of truth. Listen and read from both "sides". Make up your own mind.
I witness to you of these truths and wish you the best, in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen.
Yeah. No thread is complete without PD seal of approval.
I remember that tithing and the WOW were never brought up when I was on mission. It was always brought up after baptism in an, “Oh By the Way” did you know you need to pay that ten percent and you cannot drink coffee anymore?
It’s tough for salesmen (missionaries) to always tell all the truth when you’re trying so hard to make a deal. That pressure on the young missionaries is overwhelming to produce, produce, produce! And they’re on top of you virtually every day. It’s enough to make you want to quit the church. LOL
Car salesmen never tell all the hidden costs. Get the signature on that line brother, then we’ll tell you the rest.
A used car saleman is a perfect analogy to what the missionaries do. Slick presetation, hook you, then tell you the rest.
Just giving the folks some place to find some light and truth.
Merry Christmas!
Now you’ve done it! ... Popcorn needed ...
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