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To: circlecity; All

First, I want to thank all of the commenters here; you have helped me clarify and sharpen my argument.

Circlecity, you appear to be my brother in Christ. We agree that proclamation of the Gospel is necessary for the culture war to be fought and for American society to be renewed. We agree on my positive point.

Your disagreement is a negative one: no conscious organization for culture war. Gospel proclamation only. Your position is: nothing else is needed.

Before I give reasons why I disagree with you, understand that I certainly don’t hold that all Christians ought to mobilize for culture war. Culture war, like all wars, is fought by those who volunteer, or are drafted, for service. Any Christian who does not have a calling for the specific organization and activity I have called for can stay out of that particular fight.

You said,

“In other words, culture is bottom up not top down.”

But this cannot possibly be true. Consider some concrete examples: When the attitude of the general public about, and the laws concerning, homosexuality and abortion changed from opposition to approval, they did not change spontaneously. They changed because professors and other intellectuals began a campaign of teaching that these things are actually good. They changed because homosexalists, abortionists, and their supporters organized themselves to change the laws. They changed because the artists began portraying these things as good and those who opposed them as wicked.

Our culture’s attitude toward homosexuality and abortion most certainly did not change spontaneously. It was of course necessary that individual liberals changed their hearts and minds about these sins. But their hearts and minds did not change, and laws did not change, without organized effort.

And one could say the same thing about many features of our liberal landscape: general acceptance among non-Christians of Darwinism, the turn toward ugliness and nihilism in art and architecture, the acceptance of massively intrusive government and of mass immigration, and so on. None of these were present one hundred years ago, but they were put in place by deliberate action.

And if the liberals changed the culture by deliberately aiming to change it, so can we. It will be a very difficult battle, but we must at least make the effort.

You also said,

“You say ‘what is needed is to defeat the rule of liberalism by publicly defeating its fundamental ideas and by placing those who reject liberalism in positions of leadership.’ I say ‘replace’ them with what? Unregenerate people who believe in ‘non-liberalism’ (In whatever form that takes). Where does that get you? Ungodly men make ungodly societies no matter what their ideology.”

We should not aim for a society ruled in a Christian manner by Christians. We should only aim for what we had until roughly the 1950’s: A society in which the government generally allowed Christian communities to define themselves and act as they saw fit, and which did not tolerate, or force people to pretend to celebrate, obvious sins such as abortion, homosexuality, public blasphemy, and the deliberate attempt to replace white Americans people with hostile and inassimilable foreigners via mass immigration.

I would agree with you that theonomy, in which the government rules via biblical law, is not worth pursuing. But this is not an all-or-nothing situation. If we ought not have theonomy, it does not follow that Christians should make no effort to influence the government and the culture. Since attempting to make the culture better according to biblical standards (and the standards of the historic American nation) is obviously doing good, and since it is good for Christians to do good, it follows that it is good for Christians to engage in conservative culture war, if they have the calling.

One final point: the actual way we fight culture war is by persuasion. True, a properly-ordered (or at least tolerably-ordered) society will require non-liberals in positions of intellectual, spiritual and governmental leadership. But the foundation is persuasion. And this makes “culture combat” similar to evangelism and apologetics. And since proper principles of social order often come from the Bible, this effort supports, and is supported by, the Christian evangelism that we both say is crucial to the health of our nation.


19 posted on 08/01/2010 4:57:19 AM PDT by Alan Roebuck
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To: Alan Roebuck; circlecity; Alex Murphy; Quix
First, I want to thank you for the original article. It is a topic that most people shy away from.

I also agree that the Gospel must be preached if the culture war is to be fought...all of the Gospel.

You wrote:

“When the attitude of the general public about, and the laws concerning, homosexuality and abortion changed from opposition to approval, they did not change spontaneously. They changed because professors and other intellectuals began a campaign of teaching that these things are actually good.”

This I agree with...people that oppose God worked together to change the heart and MIND of the people, which then caused the laws to change. I would call this “bottom up” change since the attitude had to change and was not “imposed”. I would also argue that most still do not approve of homosexuality and abortion but actually only tolerate it...but that is another discussion.

Our problem is not that we need a new organization since we have plenty. We need the organization that dropped the ball several decades ago to wake up and do the job it was given 2000 years ago. “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU:...”

Too many of the modern churches will preach the Gospel and then fails to teach, especially on what might be contrary to the current culture. Scripture is clear that homosexuality is sin, as is any sex outside of marriage, and abortion, and witchcraft, and drunkenness, etc. and yet I have been in “Bible” churches that the leadership have their children reading “Harry Potter” or the discussion at some meetings turn to what kind of beer they prefer, etc. Why do the churches tolerate sin to continue without challenging it...? I can only point to what the Pastor of the church I have experienced has said...”We don't want to upset the people because then they might not come on Sunday and here my sermon, and then they would not here any of scripture”. I left that church shortly after hearing this statement, how are you going to “teaching them to observe all things...” when we refuse to teach?

As I said earlier, there is an on going effort to change this culture for the worse and those people understand that they need to educate the average person to think a certain way...to change their minds...in order to have cultural change (bottom up). They can not force this change from the top down...some tried this with Prohibition and that did not work well.

As examples:

“Reasonable and manly attitudes will be fostered by education and supported by custom.” Humanist Manifesto 1933

“The conditions of work, education, devotion, and play should be humanized. Alienating forces should be modified or eradicated...” Humanist Manifesto II 1973

“Give me your four year olds, and in a generation I will build a socialist state.” Vladimir Lenin

“Education is thus a most powerful ally of Humanism, and every American public school is a school of Humanism. What can the theistic Sunday schools, meeting for an hour once a week, and teaching only a fraction of the children, do to stem the tide of a five-day program of humanistic teaching?” “Humanism A New Religion” by Charles Francis Potter page 128 published 1930

So what does the church do...90% plus of church kids go to public schools...why? Because in most churches it is taught that public schools are a good thing. I have known a multitude of Pastors over the years and more then half of them have wives that are teachers in the public schools...does this influence the decision not to warn about the dangers of public schools? The result of sending our kids out to the schools...remember the quote above...90% plus of church kids will walk away from the church after high school. Coincidence...?

What does Scripture say...Psalms 1:1-2 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

If a man is not to learn from the ungodly then why would we send our kids to do that same thing...?

I would also point out that we are all in this culture war since we are all in the culture...you can not be neutral. This war is not conservative vs liberal but...a spiritual war. Good against evil, and God decides what is good...we can find this out in Scripture.

So let us agree to fight this fight as God has instructed us...1 Timothy 6:11-12 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

Ephesians 6:10-12 Finally, my brethren, by strong in the Lord, and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the whiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

I would add that there are organizations already doing the work of trying to educate the church. Some of them are; Summit Ministries, Answers in Genesis, WallBuilders, Worldview Weekends, Mayflower Institute, Worldview Academy, and the Christian Anti-Communism Crusade...to name a few. And I am sure they would not mind additional help.

God bless and be strong in Him

20 posted on 08/01/2010 7:23:37 PM PDT by WorldviewDad (following God instead of culture)
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