Shroud of Turin supports Resurrection, expert affirms

cna ^ | May 7, 2010

[lonevoice]

Shroud of Turin ping

[flowerplough]

Yes, there were other questions which I haven’t addressed. Is that a problem? God didn’t answer many of Job’s questions. And, yes, I’m not God (G-d to some observant Jews) and you’re not Job, either, but if you float me a softball like “Who benefits?”, I’ll swing for the far edge of the parking lot on the other side of the fence. I ain’t got all the answers, but I King-Kong-kick-butt answered the easy one.

[Swordmaker]

Just kidding. I hate when people ask for a link on something they can get as easily themselves, or which is something everyone else already knows. Believe me or don't, I don't care, but don't assign me your homework. By the way, I have a few suits that could use some repair of holes. The moths got into the closet not too long ago. Is there a good way to fix them, or should I throw them out?

Almost any good tailors could repair that kind of damage... but most of them don't employ "French Invisible Reweaving" to accomplish that. The tailor will take a small piece of the original cloth from a selvage edge that doesn't show from a hem, or a seam and reweave that into the hole. I have had expensive suits repaired with that type of reweaving in the past, one from an inadvertent cigarette burn from an idiot swinging his lit cigarette around, others from moth holes... it usually costs between $20 and $30 per hole. That type of repair is visible from the back, with the ends of the patch threads left hanging.

The French Invisible Reweaving is reserved for much more expensive cloths such as tapestries and arrases that are more complex and valuable. It is not visible from either side. I have seen examples of such repairs in museums and there is a 1950's pamphlet that has been recently uncovered that shows the technique.

For your suits, you will have to count the number of holes and assess whether it is less expensive to have them repaired or replaced... at $30 per hole, it totals up fast. But if they are $1200-$1500 suits, that's a lot of holes... But there is also the limit on the amount of material that is available for patching from the selvages and seams...

[Swordmaker]

if you float me a softball like “Who benefits?”, I’ll swing for the far edge of the parking lot on the other side of the fence. I ain’t got all the answers, but I King-Kong-kick-butt answered the easy one.

However, for the Shroud of Turin, the question is interesting. Who benefited when it was first put on display in Lirey, France, when it was owned by the de Charney family? Geoffroy de Charney built the wooden chapel in Lirey to house the Shroud and provided a Rente from his own coffers to endow it. The family did not accept donations from pilgrims to support the chapel or the monks who ran the Chapel. It was 100% supported by the de Charney family... until several years after de Charney's death.

Geoffroy De Charney was no ordinary country knight... he was the Standard Bearer for the King of France, who was trusted to fight by the King's side in battle, and the author of the French Code of Chivalry, the rules under which all French knights were expected to live. He was exemplar. He lived by that code.

Shortly after his death de Charney's daughter, Margaret, DID start to accept donations to the Chapel... because de Charney had essentially bankrupted the family supporting the chapel and the Shroud. She sought, and gained Papal permission to do so from the Avignon Pope before doing so. This display went on for years... and gathered the attention of Philip di Arcis, Bishop of Troyes, when his own donations from pilgrims coming to see the relics at his Cathedral, started to suffer... and he drafted a letter to the Pope complaining about the exhibition of the Shroud in Lirey and claimed that his predecessor had investigated it and had located the "artist who had painted it," twenty-five years earlier. No report of such an investigation has ever been uncovered, although lesser investigation reports are properly filed in the Troyes Cathedrals archives, and there is also no evidence in either the Cathedral's archives or in the Avignon or Roman archives of the Bishop's draft letter ever being completed or sent, or responded to.

Apparently, some complaint DID reach the anti-Pope in Avignon's attention, perhaps orally, because there IS a Papal bull sent to the Bishop of Troyes from the Pope... ordering him to perpetual silence about the Shroud in Lirey, in so many words saying "SHUT UP!" ... and granting the de Charney family permission for it to be displayed so long as it is made clear it is only shown "as a representation of the burial Shroud of our Lord."

Somewhat later, the de Charney's solved their bankruptcy problems, handsomely, by selling the Shroud to the Royal House of Italy... for a large sum of money, an estate, and a perpetual Rente... and the Shroud was moved the Cathedral in Turin.

In any case, if the question is "Who benefits?" at the time of it's purported "creation" in the medieval times... at least when it was first historically put on display... no one did. In fact, its owner bankrupted himself, bending over backwards to piously privately house it and support the monks who ran the Chapel... and display it for free for the pilgrims who came to venerate it.

And it was only reluctantly, after de Charney's death, that the family had to accept donations to keep the doors open.

That makes the Shroud unique... a relic that did not benefit it's owners...

[itsahoot]

The best case for its authenticity is, if they could make one just like it, they surely wood. The fact that they haven’t speaks volumes.

[flowerplough]

a relic that did not benefit its owners... until they obtained a large sum of money, an estate, and a perpetual Rente from the Royal House of Italy? Might I ask if you’ve ever heard that he who laughs last laughs best?

And before becoming wonderfully, beautifully, altruisticly rich by selling the shroud, the Charney family didn’t benefit from the pilgrimage traffic’s impact on the local Lirey economy? The rising tide of religious tourism didn’t lift any Charney boats?

James Jones, President Obama’s national security advisor, recently told a mostly-Jewish audience in Washington the old Jew/water/necktie/brother joke. Jones told of how a Taliban militant gets lost and is wandering around the desert looking for water. He finally arrives at a store run by a Jew and asks for water.

The Jewish vendor tells him he doesn’t have any water but can gladly sell him a tie. The Taliban begins to curse and yell at the Jewish storeowner. The Jew, unmoved, offers the rude militant an idea: Beyond the hill, there is a restaurant; they can sell you water.

The Taliban keeps cursing and finally leaves toward the hill. An hour later he’s back at the tie store. He walks in and tells the merchant: “Your brother tells me I need a tie to get into the restaurant.”

I’d guess, SM, that the extended Charney family probably sold the shroud pilgrims a few neckties.

[fortunecookie]

Amazing.

[Defiant]

Thanks for the info. How do you like your iPad? My son wants one for graduation.

[Swordmaker]

a relic that did not benefit its owners... until they obtained a large sum of money, an estate, and a perpetual Rente from the Royal House of Italy? Might I ask if you’ve ever heard that he who laughs last laughs best?

And before becoming wonderfully, beautifully, altruisticly rich by selling the shroud, the Charney family didn’t benefit from the pilgrimage traffic’s impact on the local Lirey economy? The rising tide of religious tourism didn’t lift any Charney boats?

You are on of those "glass is half empty" guys who judge people by what YOU would do in similar circumstances. I just told you what history says de Charney did, and you choose to ascribe underhanded motives to it. Circumstances change over a generation. Motives change as well. It was Geoffroy de Charney who funded the Shroud Chapel with his personal fortune and his wife and daughter who attempted to do so as well until that well ran dry. Only when they could no longer personally fund it, did they seek permission from the Pope to accept donations.

They had a relic that could easily have supported a major Cathedral with donations from the pilgrims it could have drawn. Instead it was kept in a backwater town of fewer than 500 people in a Wooden chapel. Did Lirey mercheants gain something from pilgrims? Possibly in later years. Most likely not during Geoffroy's control. Certainly the town of Lirey was not a destination at that time for pilgrims.

It was Geoffroy's daughter and son-in-law who, having fallen on hard times, made the decision to sell the family's prize possession to the House of Savoy. There is some scholarship that indicates that had they not done so, it would have been seized by the French crown for back taxes, and that Margaret made the best deal she could for her family, paying the back taxes and gaining the political patronage of the Savoys in exchange for the Shroud.

Certainly there is no evidence that Geoffroy had any plans for gain attached to "creating," displaying, or exhibiting the Shroud during his lifetime, which denies your basic premise.

[Swordmaker]

Thanks for the info. How do you like your iPad? My son wants one for graduation.

It's a great device... magical in many ways. Arthur C. Clarke's law... any technology, sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from Magic. This is close.

[flowerplough]

No, I are one of those “glass is half empty” guys who judge people by what the overwhelming majority of people have done, thru the millenia of recorded history. You just told me what an historian or two says de Charney did; but I have my doubts. After reading what you posted, almost any rational, realistic human would probably have somewhat similar doubts.

[maine-iac7]

Well, you seem to be a prime example of your own theory -

doesn't make it true for everyone...there ARE some decent people in the world...but since it's human nature for people to associate with people like themselves... Perhaps that's why you have your negative opinion of people...

[zot]

Thanks for your explanation of what the de Charney family actually did, and why the Shroud was sold to the House of Savoy.

[Bellflower]

Shroud of Turin supports Resurrection, expert affirms

Of course.

[flowerplough]

Perhaps that’s why I have my negative opinion of people, I’ve met a few. Been in the Army, the Reagan Army, the one the Commies feared, and three factories. I do realize that there acutally might be some decent people in the world, but I don’t have many of “happily ever Disney after” memories. Doubt you do, either.

[maine-iac7]

but I don’t have many of “happily ever Disney after” memories. Doubt you do, either.

Actually, My life has been very hard - in that I've had to work hard all my life, often 2-3 jobs at once (1 full, 2 part-time) and always struggled financially...but I raised 5 great kids - and now have 15 grandkids.

We've had our share of hard times - serious illnesses, etc., but we have had/still do, some great times - I have met/have some great people for friends.

As for "Disney" - funny you should use that for an illustration - LOL

I took my kids to Disney Land when they were little. When they grew up, they took me to Disney World...more than once.

Now I have a granddaughter employed by Disney World and have have spent so much time there - - last year, a whole week, staying in a Disney resort and 'doing Disney' with my kids and grandkids.

I probably don't need any more Disney -

But Life is what you make it - and if your life is mostly looking on the dark side - that's what you'll get.

[blackpacific]

I just asked for one example of another shroud, since Sonic109 made the claim that many places in Europe claimed to have a shroud.

I never got an answer.

[blackpacific]

There are plenty of websites which post information about the Shroud for anyone to see. Here is a link to many shroud centers:

http://www.shroud.com/centers.htm

There is another dating method available now that is better than Carbon 14, and is nondestructive. I think it has a very original name, like “nondestructive carbon dating testing”, here is a link:

http://portal.acs.org/portal/acs/corg/content?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=PP_ARTICLEMAIN&node_id=222&content_id=CNBP_024370&use_sec=true&sec_url_var=region1&__uuid=

If you read the article, I’m not that sure custodians of priceless artifacts would be very happy about the following description of the process:
“In the new method, scientists place an entire artifact in a special chamber with a plasma, an electrically charged gas similar to gases used in big-screen plasma television displays. The gas slowly and gently oxidizes the surface of the object to produce carbon dioxide for C-14 analysis without damaging the surface, he said.”

The question would be asked, how to undo the oxidation once the test is complete? In the case of the Shroud, does one average the CO_2 coming off the cloth between the original portions of the cloth and the patches?

[flowerplough]

Never got an answer? Here's Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913: "A certain difficulty was caused by the existence elsewhere of other Shrouds similarly impressed with the figure of Jesus Christ and some of these cloths, notably those of Besançon, Cadouin, Champiègne, Xabregas, etc. also claimed to be the authentic linen sindon provided by Joseph of Arimathea...
( ... )
This (Turin) Shroud like the others was probably painted without fraudulent intent to aid the dramatic setting of the Easter sequence:

Die nobis Maria, quid vidisti in via Angelicos testes, sudarium et vestes.

As the word sudarium suggested, it was painted to represent the impression made by the sweat of Christ, i.e. probably in a yellowish tint upon unbrilliant red. This yellow stain would turn brown in the course of centuries, the darkening process being aided by the effects of fire and sun. Thus, the lights of the original picture would become the shadow of Paleotto's reproduction of the images on the shroud is printed in two colours, pale yellow and red. As for the good proportions and æsthetic effect, two things may be noted. First, that it is highly probable that the artist used a model to determine the length and position of the limbs, etc.; the representation no doubt was made exactly life size. Secondly, the impressions are only known to us in photographs so reduced, as compared with the original, that the crudenesses, aided by the softening effects of time, entirely disappear. Lastly, the difficulty must be noticed that while the witnesses of the fifteenth and early sixteenth centuries speak of the image as being then so vivid that the blood seemed freshly shed, it is now darkened and hardly recognizable without minute attention. On the supposition that this is an authentic relic dating from the year A.D. 30, why should it have retained its brilliance through countless journeys and changes of climate for fifteen centuries, and then in four centuries more have become almost invisible? On the other hand if it be a fabrication of the fifteenth century this is exactly what we should expect."http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia_(1913)/The_Holy_Shroud_(of_Turin)

[blackpacific]

It is interesting that I could not find the other cloths claiming to be the shroud, with a cursory Googling. Obviously none of the other clothes have stood the test of time, since that article was written ~1905 for the Catholic Encyclopedia. Some of the conjecture in that article is simply false, there is no artist’s pigment, the image is on the tips of the microfibrils, something not known in 1905. But if you need to go back and rely on 100 year old conjecture, rather than the data coming off the cloth itself, what type of mind do you have, other than closed? Let the data speak for themselves.