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To: Elsie
Well thank you, Elsie, for joining the discussion. You commented:

As you can see, Simon was already known as 'Peter'

?? Where is that? Matthew, in verse 16, is referring to the person of Simon Peter, but this gospel was written after the ascension. So how does Jesus refer to Peter? You have placed that text in red to indicate it is a quotation: Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

It is not until the next line that our Lord changes Simon's name to Peter.

18. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Now, Elsie, what language did Jesus and His apostles speak? Aramaic. The conversation that took place on that day was in Aramaic. We know that Jesus spoke Aramaic because some of his words are preserved for us in the Gospels. Look at Matthew 27:46, where he says from the cross, ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?’ So when Jesus called Peter "rock", he was speaking in Aramaic. Rock in Aramaic is kepha.

Now, let's look at the scene. Not only was there significance in Simon being given a new and unusual name, but the place where Jesus solemnly conferred it upon Peter was also important. It happened when "Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi" (Matt. 16:13), a city that Philip the Tetrarch built and named in honor of Caesar Augustus, who had died in A.D. 14. The city lay near cascades in the Jordan River and near a gigantic wall of rock, a wall about 200 feet high and 500 feet long, which is part of the southern foothills of Mount Hermon. The city no longer exists, but its ruins are near the small Arab town of Banias; and at the base of the rock wall may be found what is left of one of the springs that fed the Jordan. It was here that Jesus pointed to Simon and said, "You are Peter" (Matt. 16:18).

The significance of the event must have been clear to the other apostles. As devout Jews they knew at once that the location was meant to emphasize the importance of what was being done. None complained of Simon being singled out for this honor; and in the rest of the New Testament he is called by his new name, while James and John remain just James and John, not Boanerges.

Who is the rock? Let's take a closer look at the key verse: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church" (Matt. 16:18). Since Simon’s new name of Peter itself means rock, the sentence could be rewritten as: "You are Rock and upon this rock I will build my Church." From the grammatical point of view, the phrase "this rock" must relate back to the closest noun. Peter’s profession of faith ("You are the Christ, the Son of the living God") is two verses earlier, while his name, a proper noun, is in the immediately preceding clause.

As an analogy, consider this artificial sentence: "I have a car and a truck, and it is blue." Which is blue? The truck, because that is the noun closest to the pronoun "it." This is all the more clear if the reference to the car is two sentences earlier, as the reference to Peter’s profession is two sentences earlier than the term rock.

Some of the effect of Christ’s play on words was lost when his statement was translated from the Aramaic into Greek, but that was the best that could be done in Greek. In English, like Aramaic, there is no problem with endings; so an English rendition could read: "You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church."

59 posted on 03/23/2010 10:16:28 AM PDT by NYer ("Where Peter is, there is the Church." - St. Ambrose of Milan)
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To: NYer
It is not until the next line that our Lord changes Simon's name to Peter.

No, it was NOT 'changed', as he was ALREADY known by this.

If you want to try the AFTER the asencion thing, then you'd best apply it EQUALLY.

61 posted on 03/23/2010 11:07:02 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: NYer
Some of the effect of Christ’s play on words was lost when his statement was translated from the Aramaic into Greek, but that was the best that could be done in Greek.<>Good luck pushing this idea, for you do NOT have what Jesus alledgely said in ARAMAIC!
62 posted on 03/23/2010 11:08:24 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: NYer
It happened when "Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi" (Matt. 16:13), a city that Philip the Tetrarch built and named in honor of Caesar Augustus, who had died in A.D. 14. The city lay near cascades in the Jordan River and near a gigantic wall of rock, a wall about 200 feet high and 500 feet long, which is part of the southern foothills of Mount Hermon. The city no longer exists, but its ruins are near the small Arab town of Banias; and at the base of the rock wall may be found what is left of one of the springs that fed the Jordan. It was here that Jesus pointed to Simon and said, "You are Peter" (Matt. 16:18).

Yes, let's look at it...

The DISTRICT of...
ruins are NEAR...
It was here...

Sorry; but much assumption is being made.

64 posted on 03/23/2010 11:10:55 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: NYer
As an analogy, consider this artificial sentence: "I have a car and a truck, and it is blue."

And the nun would rap your knuckles if swomeone tried to pass this off as a sentence!

"I have a car and a truck, WHICH is blue."

might get by.

65 posted on 03/23/2010 11:12:46 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: NYer; Elsie
Your religion has built it's entire existence and so-called infallible authority on this one set of verses! You then proceed to assume that from that point on, every subsequent, self-anointed church head has inherited this authority. Regardless of agreement with the Bible, whatever this person - good or evil - deems as dogma must be accepted under penalty of excommunication.

We have freedom of religion in this country (for now, anyway), you obviously can believe whatever you want. I, prefer to believe what the Word of God says and words, in context, mean what they say.

74 posted on 03/23/2010 4:55:25 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: NYer
Since Simon’s new name of Peter itself means rock, the sentence could be rewritten as: "You are Rock and upon this rock I will build my Church.

OR, it could be rewritten, 'You are Peter the little rock and upon the massive, huge rock I will build my church...

Oh, that's what it does say...

As an analogy, consider this artificial sentence: "I have a car and a truck, and it is blue." Which is blue? The truck, because that is the noun closest to the pronoun "it."

That's crazy talk...

I would never assume your truck is blue...I'd ask you where you learned to speak because the sentence doesn't make any sense...

But since Jesus and the Apostles spoke in Aramaic (which there isn't an ounce of evidence), then this verse should read:

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this Peter I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And this one should have been:

Mar 15:46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of Peter, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.

Or this one:

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Peter that followed them: and that Peter was Christ.

We see how you guys operate...How do you get anyone to believe this stuff you put out???

202 posted on 03/24/2010 6:04:03 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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