Posted on 01/23/2010 7:05:43 AM PST by Gamecock
The doctrine of a pre-tribulational rapture is not clearly taught anywhere in the scriptures, but is an inference based upon several Dispensational premises: first, that the second coming of Christ is imminent (that is, that there are no prophetic events which must precede it); second, that the “Church Age” is a parenthetical part of God's redemptive sign, and that he will one day revert to dealing with his earthly people, the Jews; and third, that the time in which he will deal with these Jews will be a seven-year period known as the Great Tribulation, which is yet to come. so then, if Christ could come back at any time, and yet, there are still at least seven years of tribulation to come in world history, then he must be coming back before those seven years, to take away his Church, so that he can focus again on Israel.
The problems with this teaching are numerous. Most fundamentally, it is built upon the faulty supposition that there are two peoples of God (concerning which, see the previous question, “Is Dispensationalism biblical?); and it is also interesting to note that, according to 2 Thes. 2:1-12, the church's being gathered together to Christ cannot precede the exaltation of the “Son of Perdition,” who, according to Dispensational teaching is the antichrist, that will exalt himself in the new Jewish temple at the midpoint of the tribulation; so, even if one accepts the Dispensational teachings regarding all the events and timing of the seven years of tribulation (which is unwarranted anyway!), the “rapture of the church” cannot come before three and a half years of the tribulation, at least.
Basically, all of the intricate chronologies of the rapture and events of the tribulation are not found in scriptures, but mandated by the false presupposition that the Church and Israel are two distinct peoples of God, and that, since God is not fulfilling his promises to Israel in the present age, he must be planning on doing it later, after he has removed the Church. But in contradiction to this philosophically-derived schematic, the bible often speaks of the second coming of Christ as an event that no one can know the precise timing of, but may recognize signs of its approaching (Mat. 24:32-42; 1 Thes. 5:1-6); and that will involve contemporaneously the resurrection and judging of both the wicked and righteous, the creation of the new heavens and earth, etc. (Mat. 24:29-31; 25:31-46; John 5:25-29; 2 Thes. 1:6-10; 1 Cor. 15:23-26, 51-58).
Nope.
Glad I could help.
Ping
We certainly are well into another "slaughter of the innocent", and who can escape the consequences of thousands of "virgin births".
That one thought ~ reusable prophetic messages ~ is certainly simpler than the enormous scaffold of human doctrines built up to sustain the supposed Rapture.
1 Thes 4:16-18
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
ping
Which supports rapture, but not a Pre-trib rapture.
Matt. 24:21-42
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
[23] Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
[25] Behold, I have told you before.
[26] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
[27] For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[28] For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
[32] Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
[33] So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
[34] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
[35] Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
[36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
[37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
[39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[40] Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[41] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[42] Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
He will test His own but before the end comes, He will remove His own. It’s all about people who believe in Him.
His nature hasn’t changed ... Noah, Lot and other situations ... He will remove His own FIRST.
I don’t get into man made labels.
He removes His own FIRST, all hell breaks lose and then He returns to end it.
FOrget labels and just read what He states in the Bible.
I myself believe in pre-tribulation. Maybe the Lord will lift out the ones who want to go before the tribulation, then bring up the ones who believe in Mid-tribulation, and let the other wait until the end. :)
Only the Father knows.
Even Jesus said that only The Father knows the hour. However, there is some event which tells observant Jews precisely when He will set foot on the Mount of Olives, ‘in that day’, and I believe—from studying the subject extensively—that the Rapture of Christ’s Bride is that event which points precisely to 3 1/2 years later the Messiah setting foot on Earth, again.
Gamecock,
Whatever your belief, the article is pretty shallow.
Will God turn to His people, the Jews again? The Apostle Paul says He will in Romans. Never does he confuse the two groups -
Christians and the nation of Israel in Romans. He goes to
great lengths to communicate that the gifts and callings of
God are irrevocable - as evidence that God will fulfill His
promises to the Patriarchs.
I have come to the conviction that God’s plan on Earth includes
two peoples. One, the earthy people - the Jews - and the other,
a heavenly Bride of Christ, composed of the Church.
I am amazed at the navel gazing that happens in some quarters
of Christianity that makes Christians the center of God’s
work - instead of His glory. But that is me. Let each man
be convinced in his own mind.
I wish you the best,
ampu
My sister had an usual experience.
Around midnight about ten years ago, my sister was working on her computer when she heard loud, annoying static.
She said, “What is that!”
She discovered it was coming from my father’s earphones for the hearing impaired that was located in the adjoining room.
She held the ear phones up to her face for a closer look on how to turn them off. All of a sudden the static turned into the music of the Hallelujah Chorus with choir-like voices singing “Hallelujah! Hallelujah!”
This was followed by a strong calm male voice saying, “Prepare! The Lord Jesus Christ is coming soon! This is the last generation!”
Then the loud static came on the earphones again. My sister finally figured out how to turn the headphones off. She looked around the room to check for the source of the message and found that the TV had been turned off; the satellite dish had been turned off; and no radio was operating.
My sister excitedly told my mother, who was still up and working in the kitchen, “You are not going to believe this!”
She told my mother what had transpired. My mother told my sister to write the message down. She did, and still has the envelope it was written on, as well as the headphones. Shortly after midnight she called me and relayed what she had heard. She also told her pastor.
The headphones had never made a static noise before or since the message.
It is interesting to note that several later years I was led to write two songs in that same room about the end times and Christ’s return.
The rapture of the church, the body of Christ, must precede the tribulation in order that all of God's Word be fulfilled.Compare it with your statement above: The rapture of the church, the body of Christ, must precede the tribulation in order that all of God's Word be fulfilled.
Uh huh, or, as Jesus said, (numbers here to show temporal succession--that means, what happens first, then second, then third, and so on) to quote him at length from Matthew 24 before summarizing:"For then shall be (1) great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.To recap:
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.* For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Immediately (2) after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the (3) Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and (4) they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
--Matthew 241. ...then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.Now let's boil it down a bit more so we don't get lost in all the words:
2. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened...
3. ...then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
4. ...he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
5. and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.1. Great tribulation such as has never been seen or will be seen.And now again:
2. Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven, seen by everyone on earth.
3. Sound of trumpet and
4. angels collecting elect throughout the earth.1. Great tribulation.
2. Jesus returns.
3. Trumpet sounded. (see 1 Corinthians 15:52).
4. Angels sent.
5. Believers gathered. (see 1 Corinthians 15:23)
I don't see how anybody can read it like that! I agree AC must come upon the world scene before the Second Coming, but does it mean the beginning of the Tribulation? The Tribulation will begin with the signing of a 7-year peace treaty with Israel, brokered by AC himself, which tells me that he WAS a political power BEFORE the Tribulation. Doesn't say anything about the timing of the Rapture and the Tribulation.
Verse 7 gives us a better idea on timing: Only he who now restrains will do do until he is taken out of the way. I know some people think it is the Holy Spirit who will be taken out of the way, and some translations say He instead of he. But we know that there will be lots of people coming to Christ during the Tribulation, and convicting people is the job of the Holy Spirit. I don't believe He will be removed from earth, or they would be no great soul harvest. So, who restrains "iniquity" and can be removed PRIOR to the Rapture? Certainly not government, nobody in his sense would look at today's administration and claim that it restrains anything. Looking at 2000 years of history, it seems to me a safe guess to say that it is the Church. With all of her faults, the Church has been a force for good in this world, and it is the Church that will be removed before the beginning of the Tribulation.
This is my opinion, and if that makes me a "dispensationalist", so be it!
God will do what he wants to do. In his own timeless time.
Trying to predict or interpret is merely academic sprinkled with vanity.
Pre-Tribulational Rapture... Seven year Dispensationalism... Etc.
‘Tis my considered opinion that, just as the Jewish Pharisees and Saducees and priests and scribes couldn’t recognize Jesus-Messiah way back when, so our prophecy-interpreting religious professionals won’t have a ghost of a clue if he returns during their time.
Credit for this info goes to “A Bible Study by Jack Kelley”
Connecting The Dots
Using our Bible knowledge to back into the present from the Abomination that Causes Desolation, so far we find the sequence looks like this.
The Abomination can’t happen till the Temple’s built. But that can’t happen till a 7-year covenant is confirmed permitting its construction. (By the way, this 7-year period is often called Daniel’s 70th week because it’s the last week of years in a prophecy consisting of 70 weeks of years given to Daniel in about 538 BC. Dan. 9:24-27)
The 7-year covenant can’t happen till someone from among the descendants of the Roman people emerges with a plan for peace in the Middle East. And that can’t happen till the battle described in Ezekiel 38-39 puts the Middle East in all out war.
Ezekiel’s battle can’t happen until God is ready to reveal Himself to Israel again, bringing Jews from all over the world to Israel clamoring for a Temple so they can re-instate their Old Covenant relationship with Him.
For all of my 25 plus years as a student of prophecy, scholars have been expecting the Battle of Ezekiel 38. Yet the conditions that make it possible have never been met. For one thing, the participants are not all in place, but more importantly Israel has never known a single day of peace, let alone the prolonged period necessary for them to be described as a peaceful and unsuspecting people, the way Ezekiel did (Ezek. 38:11). Something has to happen to make them feel like they no longer have a threatening enemy while leaving Iran, Russia, and the other nations Ezekiel identified in position to attack.
Recently, several writers, myself included, have seen two other Old Testament prophecies as likely preludes to Ezekiel 38. In Psalm 83 it appears that all of Israel’s next door neighbors will rise up in an attack intended to destroy the Jewish nation, and Isaiah 17 specifically mentions Israel’s destruction of Damascus. The defeat of Israel’s neighbors fills in two more blanks in the end times sequence. First, it explains why none of them are mentioned in Ezekiel 38, when logic dictates that they should be right in the thick of things. Second, it reveals how the Jews can be caught with their guard down. With Syria, Hamas, Hezbollah, Lebanon, and the others defeated, Israel will finally have some breathing room. Since Russia and Iran have traditionally used these neighbors as proxies rather than having a face-to-face confrontation, Israel may feel there’s no longer any threat from them either.
But Wait, There’s More!
And neither God’s revelation to Israel nor the emergence of the anti-Christ can happen until the Church is gone, for two very good reasons.
1. In Acts 15:14 James clearly prophesied that after the Lord had taken the church He would return and rebuild the Temple. Simon has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written: “After this I will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it” (Acts 15:14-16).
After the Lord has taken the Church, He’ll return and rebuild the Temple. Two Greek words are critical to our understanding of this passage. The one translated tent also means Tabernacle, a reference to the Temple. The one translated taking means to lay hold of, or take up in order to carry, or carry away. I believe it’s a veiled reference to the Rapture of the Church preceding God’s return to Israel.
If so, it’s consistent with God’s way. He seems to focus either on Israel or the Church, never both at once. In the greater context of the passage James was illustrating this very point from the other end of the Church Age. He told the gathered Apostles that God was setting Israel aside while He took from among the Gentiles a people for Himself. But after He had taken them, He would return to restore Israel.
Later, Paul alluded to this sequence in Romans 11:25-27. I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
As I’ve pointed out before, in Paul’s day the phrase full number was a nautical term that stood for the number of crewmen necessary before a ship could legally set sail. Apparently God has assigned a specific number to the church before it can be raptured. When that number is complete, the Church will “come in” to the place prepared for us. Come in was another nautical term meaning “to arrive at the intended destination”, which Jesus described as His father’s house in John 14:1-3. Then God will turn again to Israel, reversing the hardening of Israel’s heart, taking the blinders from their eyes, and offering salvation once more.
2. In 2nd Thessalonians 2:6-7 Paul explained that the anti-Christ could not be revealed until the power that’s restraining him is taken out of the way (literally out of the midst). To most evangelical scholars the power Paul wrote about is the Holy Spirit as resident in the Church. Since this power is sealed within us (Ephe 1:13) it stands to reason that if the Holy Spirit is taken we have to go too. Here’s another hint of the Rapture of the Church, this time preceding the appearance of the anti-Christ.
So if the Rapture has to precede both the revelation of God to Israel and the revelation of the anti-Christ to the world, then the Rapture has to precede the battle of Ezekiel 38 as well. Since no one knows what the full number of the Church is, no one can know in advance exactly how long before Ezekiel 38 the Rapture will take place. It could literally happen any day, and there’s no day more likely than any other. For that reason we can’t locate it any more specifically in the End Times sequence than to say that it must precede Ezekiel 38.
But apart from that, the sequence of events will go like this. The Battle of Psalm 83/Isaiah 17, the Battle of Ezekiel 38, anti-Christ’s appearance as a peace maker, the 70th week of Daniel begins, the Abomination that Causes Desolation takes place, then the Great Tribulation, the Second Coming, the Millennium, and Eternity. The first of these could be very close. So close that you can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah.
Well the WORD, which we are told is God, says that a multitude of ‘Christians’ will believe in flying to save their souls. But the Heavenly Father had Ezekiel to pen that he is against those that teach and believe they will fly to save their souls.
Paul never taught there would be a ‘rapture’, even though some see that as his meaning.
What is demonstrated in a rapture belief is the lack of knowledge as to what the tribulation is, that has never been before in this flesh age. And there are two tribulations, the first one is deception, and the second one is the recognition of what deception was believed of the first tribulation.
That story sounds almost as exciting as some young fellow receiving some special spectacles to read some found scriptures in a cave in the US... with those golden plates and the reading glasses being taken away by Moroni...
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