Posted on 12/24/2009 3:06:30 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege
Although I am not a Christian, I support the concept behind the Manhattan Declaration and wish to express my support.
We have problems with abortion, the sanctity of marriage and the free, unrestricted practice of our faith BECAUSE we have shoved aside the Great Commission.
Jesus did not command us to protect marriage as an institution in society. He did not command us to picket abortion clinics. He did not command us to exercise our freedom of speech. Those are all important things, but not THE most important thing.
The most important thing for Christians to do is to make disciples out of all nations, baptize them, and teach them to be obedient to Christ's commands. If we do this, all else falls into place.
I used to be in agreement with you—but I also think Christians, motivated by love of neighbor, have a responsibility to the common good too. I think back to Evangelist William Wilberforce who was the lead abolitionist that brought about the end of the British slave trade.
Not only was he doctrinally and theologically sound, and totally Christ-centered in all he did—but God had called him to a mission with temporal, secular implications as well. I am sure this required Wilberforce to work across party lines, work with unbelievers, etc...for the sake of justice. Just as many believing Christians worked with Deists and unbelievers in crafting the US Constitution.
That being said, you’re right “the common good” is not our ultimate goal—our primary allegiance is to the kingdom of Jesus Christ.
I’m inclined to disagree with signing.
It says:
“Christians confess that God alone is Lord of the conscience. Immunity from religious coercion is the cornerstone of an unconstrained conscience. No one should be compelled to embrace any religion against his will, nor should persons of faith be forbidden to worship God according to the dictates of conscience or to express freely and publicly their deeply held religious convictions. What is true for individuals applies to religious communities as well.”
Let’s be realistic. Both Catholics and Reformers once killed ‘heretics’ with great glee...or at least sought them out for killing. The Anglican Church, the Catholic Church, Calvin in Geneva, Luther in Germany - Christianity has had great experience with ‘state churches’. “No one should be compelled to embrace any religion against his will, nor should persons of faith be forbidden to worship God according to the dictates of conscience or to express freely and publicly their deeply held religious convictions”?
Hypocrisy.
Homosexuality is sin. So is adultery. So is fornication. I guess I’m a little bit bothered by focusing on one issue - homosexual marriage. Will these signers refuse to marry non-christians, or those who live together before marriage? Do they advocate using the power of the state to prevent fornication, or adultery? Easy divorce has probably done more harm to marriage than homosexual marriage.
Are these religious leaders going to call for pulling kids out of school, to avoid indoctrination?
It seems to me this is just an easy way to take a stand on issues that have little to do with the sins of their members...
Me too.
So, are the muzzies being exempted from bullying by the libs?
I think back to Evangelists such as William Wilberforce who was the primary figure behind the abolition of the British Slave Trade. He was sound in doctrine, sound in theology, and very Christ-centered in all he did—yet he was willing to take on a major mission with secular, temporal implications.
I don’t know what believers in Germany could have or could not have done in terms of “fight against” the Nazi atrocities.
While I understand that evangelicals have placed way too much emphasis on “the culture war” at the expense of preaching Christ and the Gospel, I don’t see a reason to go the other extreme. One is not automatically diluting the Gospel by standing up for the rights of the unborn side by side with those of other faiths.
With that line of thinking, no believing Christian should have worked with Deists and agnostics to craft the US Constitution.
***
Here’s how Mohler addresses it:
While the whole scope of Christian moral concern, including a special concern for the poor and vulnerable, claims our attention, we are especially troubled that in our nation today the lives of the unborn, the disabled, and the elderly are severely threatened; that the institution of marriage, already buffeted by promiscuity, infidelity and divorce, is in jeopardy of being redefined to accommodate fashionable ideologies; that freedom of religion and the rights of conscience are gravely jeopardized by those who would use the instruments of coercion to compel persons of faith to compromise their deepest convictions.
Further:
Because the sanctity of human life, the dignity of marriage as a union of husband and wife, and the freedom of conscience and religion are foundational principles of justice and the common good, we are compelled by our Christian faith to speak and act in their defense.
Yes, the Muzzies are exempted. After all, they will kill those whom they deem to be disrespecting Islam.
Why don't they ever kill homos and libs?
The libs are afraid to bully the Muslims.
They do in Iran.
Why don't they (Muslims) ever kill homos and libs?
They do in Iran.
And the otherwise bullying Gaystapo remains silent.
Oh well. After all, the mullahs aren't "those awful rednecks." I guess that makes it all right.
Unfortunately, that is the one issue most susceptible to abuse.
I will walk a mile out of my way to avoid that.
The tendency to eventually join the muslim mindset is just too real.
One such so-called religion on this earth is one two many.
Of course, that does not prevent pursuing the identical goal simply by example.
While I love pro-life groups, pro-sanctity of marriage groups, lawyers who fight for school prayer, etc., we Christians need to stick with what the Savior has called us to do. Those other "causes" are mere diversions. I am not saying they are illegitimate causes. But they must not be pursued to the exclusion of the Great Commission.
So you feel the Great Commission should be disobeyed because it has been "susceptible to abuse?"
"Gaystapo" — how appropriate!
I didn't coin the term.
It's still appropriate. :)
Right, and I don’t think Al Mohler is saying that at all. His life and work are a testimony to that. GOD has obviously given him a heart for cultural engagement, but you can tell his focus is completely on Christ and the (true) Gospel is the center of all he does and preaches.
Mohler is like several of the other signers: Pastors Tim Keller of Redeemer Presbyterian Church and men like Wayne Grudem. These aren’t your Jerry Fallwell/Pat Robertson types if you know what I mean—but men who have done wonders for the spread of the Gospel and have led the Great Commission in very, very difficult places. (Tim Keller pastors one of the most vibrant Gospel-centered communities in the heart of “godless/pagan” New York City!)
I didn't coin the term.
It's still appropriate. :)
Yes it is.
But the point is, this militant "gaystapo," which is so militant in the West against chr*stians, doesn't care a fig about the "oppression" of homosexuals in Communist/Third World regimes. They merely use "gay rights" as a club against the West, probably with the knowledge that in the coming "utopia" they will be liquidated, which makes them all the more despicable.
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