Posted on 11/14/2009 1:09:01 PM PST by NYer
NEW YORK, Oct. 21 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- A relic of Saint Mary Magdalene, often referred to as the Apostle of the Apostles, is making its first North American tour. The relic, a major piece of her tibia, will be carried in a reliquary to the United States by Father Thomas Michelet, a French Dominican priest. Its first stop is on October 22nd in Gainesville, Georgia at Saint Michael's Catholic Church where it will be venerated all through the night.
The purpose of the tour, which continues through November 30th, and travels to Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, New York and Florida, is to share the holiness of the relic and to tell the story of the saint who is recorded as the first witness to the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Father Thomas Michelet is touring with the permission of Bishop Dominique Rey of Frejus-Toulon, France, the relic's home. A letter of authentication from Bishop Rey reports that the relics were hidden at the time of the Saracen invasions and rediscovered in 1279, and have been venerated without interruption ever since.
Richard Borgman, a former Protestant evangelical pastor who experienced a dramatic conversion to Catholicism seven years ago, initiated the tour. His interest in Mary Magdalene began when he and his wife, also a lay missionary, lived with Bishop Dominic Rey below the mountains of Saint Baume, the grotto where Mary Magdalene spent the last 30 years of her life. Saint Baume means holy perfume-- the smell that Mary Magdalene's bones gave off when they were found.
(Excerpt) Read more at reuters.com ...
Mr. Rogers, I prefer to take the instructions of those who lived closer to the source of the the issue it at hand. But, uh, thanks anyway.
Regards.
The Early Church Fathers on The Early Church Fathers believed that being baptized was being born again. They baptized both adults and infants and they used three methods; immersion, pouring and sprinkling. The Didache After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days (Didache 7:1 [ca. A.D. 70]). Justin Martyr As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father... and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]). Irenaeus He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]). Tertullian [N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life" (On Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]). When we are about to enter the water — no, just a little before — In the church and under the hand of the bishop, we solemnly profess that we renounce the devil and his pomps and his angels. Thereupon we are immersed three times (The Crown 3:2 [A.D. 211]). Hippolytus
Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]). Recognitions of Clement But you will perhaps say, 'What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?' In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]). Origen The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]). Cornelius I
As [the heretic Novatian] seemed about to die, he received baptism in the bed where he lay, by pouring. . . . (Letter to Fabius of Antioch 6:43 [A.D. 251]). Cyprian [l]t behooves those to be baptized . . . so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God . . . because it is written "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Epistles 72 [73]: 21 [A.D. 252]). As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]). In the saving sacraments, when necessity compels and when God bestows his pardon, divine benefits are bestowed fully upon believers, nor ought anyone be disturbed because the sick are poured upon or sprinkled when they receive the Lord's grace" (Letter to a Certain Magnus 69(76):12 [A.D. 254]). Ambrose The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11-12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism.... "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (On Abraham 2:11:79-84 [A.D. 387]). Augustine It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]). Copyright © 2004 StayCatholic.com
Baptism
Then follow the example of the Apostles, not church fathers hundreds of years later. Nor does the Didache disagree with me:
7:1 But concerning baptism, thus shall ye baptize.
7:2 Having first recited all these things, baptize {in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit} in living (running) water.
7:3 But if thou hast not living water, then baptize in other water;
7:4 and if thou art not able in cold, then in warm.
7:5 But if thou hast neither, then pour water on the head thrice in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Baptism in a river outdoors is considered best, then indoors. If there isn’t enough water, THEN pour (not sprinkle) water 3 times on the head. As I’ve said before on this thread, I live in the desert. Before plumbing, one needed to take what one could get, and baptism is something done very quickly after conversion - see every account in Acts.
Hundreds of years later? Have you heard of the The Apostolic Fathers ? They got their Bible lessons from the Apostles and they in turn instructed their followers; again you're about 1500 years away from them, I prefer their instructions.
again you’re about 1500 = again you’re about 1900
“As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”
Either the Apostles were confused, and used past tense and future tense without thought, or salvation has more complexity that just becoming a Christian/forgiveness of sins.
Justification is when God forgives our sins. Sanctification is an ongoing process, where we are separated from the world. Salvation can refer to justification (past tense), or both justification and sanctification (present and future tense).
We see this very clearly in Hebrews 10:
“...by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.” (NIV), or “For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.” (NASB)
His sacrifice “has made [us] perfect forever”. And who are the us? “Those who are being made holy (or sanctified)”.
If understood this way, all of the scriptures make sense. It also helps to remember he sometimes wrote to congregations, and the congregations were not 100% Christians - there were tares in with the wheat, so to speak.
Oh...and different writers sometimes used words in a somewhat different sense. The terminology of Paul wasn’t identical to how Peter or John put it. It doesn’t invalidate their words, it just means we need to remember who wrote what why.
Have you read Acts? Or the Epistles? They ARE from the Apostles! Why ignore them so you can follow something else?
Now feel free to quote Acts...and the Epistles.
Oh wait! They don’t support your views.
By whose authority are the Acts the actually "the Acts" and the Epistles actually "the Epistles"?
the use of the bones of Elisha brought a dead man to life? “use of” or accidental contact? The dead man was thrown into Elisha’s open(?) grave? Chuck and run, because the Moabs were enroute? Tossing a dead guy into a handy hole, and then getting surprised later is tons different from tearing apart a human skeleton and divvying up pieces of bone for voodoo-fetish rituals.
As a Protestant this just sets my teeth on edge.
Then...I try to remember that most of the **essential** Catholic doctrine is in alignment with the teachings of my church.
They are self-authenticating, or not at all.
The Christians collectively recognized them as scripture by 100-150 AD, with a few exceptions - those involving concerns for Apostolic authority (Jude, Hebrews) or length (2-3 John, Jude).
By 150-250 AD, your ‘church fathers’ used them as sources of authority. But if YOU want to reject Acts and the Epistles, I cannot stop you.
As for immersion - if you want to bury your dead with a spoonful of dirt, or bath in a spoonful of water, or wash your hands by sticking your pinkie under the water - I can’t stop you there, either. If you want to believe the cloud of Moses was a small patch of fog, or Moses parted the Red Sea at ankle depth - you do as you wish.
Fear and stupidity did that. When a rational person fears death, he wants to know what it looks like, not because he enjoys looking but because he wants to help the dying and prepare for his own dying. When the rational component has been removed from our psyche by secular humanism, we have nothing but panic, so we cruelly and stupidly isolate the dying.
Surprised by what?
The latter. As I already commented to fish hawk, Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.
Sure puts the lie to the whole "once-saved-always-saved" tradition.
The title of this thread speaks volumes about the spirit of idolotry that has pervaded the Roman cult. And, the resistence to "level ground at the foot of the cross" is further evidence that the Catholic church is simply a man-made effort to live in the "flesh". Even when the Scriptures speaks to equality among believers, Rome needs tall hats, fancy bathrobes, and titles. Anything to lord it over their sheeple. Tragic.
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 1:28. But, don't let the Scriptures ruin your club.
As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?"..."Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray...But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."
He isn't speaking to individual believers in this passage. Many in the church will fall away and follow false doctrine. I would tend to use the Catholic Church to prove this, while Catholics tend to assume Baptists & Pentecostals prove this. However, either way, He isn't speaking to an individuals, but to groups - groups he has already said would be a mixture of true and false believers (wheat and tares).
Now look at John 6, that Catholics like to take literally, except where they do not.
"37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
Or as Peter puts it, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
God's power keeps the elect. Those who are not elect will fall away - as John puts it, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge." - 1 John 2
I wonder what they were so afraid of?
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