Sharing the Real Mary (with our Protestant brethren) [Ecumenical Caucus]

ic ^ | October 16, 2009 | David Mills

[AnAmericanMother]

The other children are absent from the Gospel narratives during (a) the census and journey to Bethlehem, and (b) the flight into Egypt.

Not surprising. They were probably out on their own already. If Joseph was in his fifties, say, he probably would have been married around age 20, and his kids would have been between the ages of 20 and 30 and already married themselves. Remember Herod was looking for the babes under two years old.

[AnAmericanMother]

About the only time reading from a scroll is mentioned in the New Testament is when Jesus reads from the roll of Isaiah in the synagogue and then says, "This day is fulfilled this scripture in your ears."

So yes, the synagogue was where you expected to find the Scriptures, not at home.

[Claud]

Ack...yes you’re right Gaudete. Friday afternoon brain...no work real good.

[kalee]

I understand. :)

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Actually, it is Biblical. She was foretold. She initiated Christ’s first miracle, the first sign of His mission. He said, “Behold your mother.” She was in the room with all the men when the Holy Spirit came. I think that’s pretty huge. Why did the Holy Spirit want her there?”

I agree with all that - but that doesn’t prove any of the
claims you made.

“Now add in all the miracles of Fatima and Lourdes.”

You, and others ASSUME they were miracles from Mary.

“These are proven medical miracles that no one refutes. They have been thoroughly examined by skeptics of every faith.”

You assume they are more than psychosomatic healing.

“So she does heal.”

You assume it was Mary who healed.

“Her messages during those apparitions are all about longing for us, waiting for us, wanting us to know her Son, asking us to pray to know her Son better.”

You assume the messages were from Mary.

“I wasn’t sending you a commercial message about Mary. I was telling you about her; about how most Catholics see her.”

Thank you for the clarification, but you were doing more
than telling me what you thought. You were exhorting me
to enter into more that God Himself says about our lady.

“Not everything is Biblical”

! In this case, we could rephrase that as, “nothing here
is Biblical.”

“The New Testament states that a book of everything that Christ said and did would fill a room.”

Yet, we have everything He chose to record for the Church.
The fact that not everything was recorded doesn’t mean
that you can just make it up and it carries equal weight
to what God inspired the writers of the Scriptures to record.

“Many of the things we know about Christ are from that wealth of knowledge that wasn’t written down, but was known, by the Apostles.”

You assume these things are true.

In reality, there is much that was not the practice of
the first and second second century Church that was
added as doctrine after that. It is believed today as it
it were always there. It was not.

Best,
ampu

[Melian]

“You were exhorting me to enter into more that God Himself says about our lady.”

What God said about Mary was that she was blessed among all women. Ever. She had been foretold in prophesy. That she was “full of grace” and that He was with her. She had found favor with Him above all other women- or humans for that matter. He took her body and worked a miracle, the ultimate miracle, with it. She was perfect in her obedience to God.

We also know Jesus loved her. She asked Him to do His first miracle and, though He expressed reservations, He did it! We know she was with Him on the road to Calvary and our redemption. He gave her to the Apostle He loved most. We know she, a woman, was in the room with the Apostles during the Pentecost. That’s pretty huge, don’t you think?

What other New Testament woman do you know more about? Why do you think the Holy Spirit wanted us to know so much more about Mary than any other woman in the New Testament? Do you think holding God inside you, touching Him daily for 30 years, listening to Him speak for 30 years, watching His every action for 30 years, as a mother does, would not have an effect on someone?

Even if God had NOT told us Mary was holy, she would have been extremely holy after 30 years of exposure to God’s presence, don’t you think? Can you imagine being that close to God for your entire adult life? We can only imagine the effects. I think it is very logical to assume Mary had a unique, close, and miraculous relationship with God.

If we accept that Mary’s relationship with God was unique and miraculous, we can then logically ask the next question: wouldn’t He allow her to do miraculous things? He allowed the Apostles to do wonders. He’s allowed believers all through the ages to do miracles in His name. Why wouldn’t he allow the woman who was blessed among all women, who had found His favor, who lived her life completely for Him, and who loved Jesus more than anyone, to do wonders also?

Catholics believe He does. We believe He allows Mary to continue her service to Him even now and to do miracles that point us to Him. We believe she is still being allowed to tell us, “Do whatever He tells you to do.”

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“If we accept that Mary’s relationship with God was unique and miraculous, we can then logically ask the next question: wouldn’t He allow her to do miraculous things? He allowed the Apostles to do wonders. He’s allowed believers all through the ages to do miracles in His name. Why wouldn’t he allow the woman who was blessed among all women, who had found His favor, who lived her life completely for Him, and who loved Jesus more than anyone, to do wonders also?”

Everything you wrote is interesting, mostly true, but
doesn’t lead to your conclusion. You have, simply, an
opinion. If you wish to hold that opinion, of course
it is your right. That in itself, however, doesn’t make
it Biblical or true. In effect, you have a doctrine that
is based on a foundation that is not commanded in Scripture,
or even taught, as every major doctrine of the Church
is. Again, if you wish to believe it, I am not trying to
lead you to believe anything else - I’m just responding
to your posts, which you have initiated with me.

“Catholics believe He does. We believe He allows Mary to continue her service to Him even now and to do miracles that point us to Him. We believe she is still being allowed to tell us, “Do whatever He tells you to do.”

Oh, I know what Catholics believe. I’m just responding that
I read what you write, which I’ve read and heard before,
and I’m simply responding as I did in the very first post,
“I’ve concluded that Protestants make too little of Mary
and Catholics make more of her than is revealed.”

Blessings to you,
ampu

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Calvin worked in Geneva to outlaw all idolatrous veneration of Mary.

While Luther and Calvin may have believed Mary did not have any more children in addition to Jesus, they did NOT believe the errors the papacy teaches -- they did not believe in Mary's immaculate conception; they did not believe Mary was born and died sinless; they did not believe Mary was assumed bodily into heaven; they did not believe prayers should be offered to Mary; they did not believe Mary was a mediator between God and men; and they did not believe Mary was a "Co-Redeemer" or a 'Dispensatrix of all Grace."

And they sure didn't believe Mary was on the cross with Jesus Christ, helping her son to redeem His flock, as displayed on this cross at the main Mary basilica in Rome....

[the_conscience]

This is what caught my eye:

"By "Protestant" I'm thinking particularly of our Evangelical friends who are, in doctrinal seriousness and many other ways, close to us...But things are changing. One can guess at the reasons: The culture so promotes women that a heavily masculine tradition will prudently look to its sources for famous women to feature."

What kind of pyschobabble is that?

[ArrogantBustard]

Just remember, the worst piece of advice in the history of the human race was also given by a woman.

"Here, Adam ... eat this fruit."
-Eve (formerly of Paradise).

I guess there's some sort of typology going on here.

[Ann Archy]

NO KIDDING!!!