Posted on 09/17/2009 7:10:22 AM PDT by restornu
.Some time ago, I called needhim.org to discuss the Trinity and find out if I’m missing something or if Christians really just can’t count.
The lady who answered the phone, Donna, described the Trinity as “really cool”, and told me that the Father = God, the Son = God and the Holy Ghost = God. I was a little confused and tried to explain the biblical narrative in these terms.
The Holy Spirit (God) has sex with the Virgin Mary to impregnate her with Jesus (God). Later, Jesus (God) is sacrificed by the Father (God) to save us from… God?
I asked Donna if she thought this meant God was a masochist, and she said “no, it was more of a symbol”. Oh? So God didn’t really sacrifice himself to appease… himself? Why couldn’t he just forgive everyone for their sins without sacrificing himself?
Donna then said that the Trinity can be explained like this; in the same way that water can be found in three states (solid, liquid and gas), so can God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). I took this very literally and asked “So it’s fair to say that God is ice, Jesus is water and the Holy Spirit is vapour?” “Yes, you could say that”, she responded. After asking a few seemingly innocent and ignorant questions such as “So Jesus walked on Jesus?”, Donna got the impression that I’d taken what she said too literally.
Donna explained to me that the Trinity had three very distinct identities. So I asked her if that meant the sum of these parts was God, to which she responded that yes, the sum of these parts is equal to God, however the parts are also independently equal to God. For the sake of simplicity, I’ll just refer to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as God (after all, they’re not polytheists, right?). What Donna was saying is God = God, which I have no problem with, but she is also saying that God + God + God = God.
Yep, they just can’t count.
The call finished with Donna speaking a prayer which begun “God, thank you for being such an awesome God…”
Oh, this should be fun
The facets of a diamond are individual and unique... and all the same diamond. God has likewise made himself known in individual and unique persons that are all part of one and the same essential being.
The essence of God is not diluted in his persons of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit anymore than the essence of a diamond is diluted by looking at an individual facet.
And God did not die to save us from God. He died to allow us to be with him. God does not punish us, we punish ourselves by deciding to not accept his grace and forgiveness.
Mormon formula:
The Heavenly Father (one God) has sex with the Virgin Mary to impregnate her with Jesus (another God). Later, Jesus (another God) is sacrificed by the Heavenly Father (First God) to help men "progress eternally (becoming yet more Gods)....
....who can then create planets with their own Virgin Marys, who these new Gods can have sex with to start the process anew....
This is NOT Mormon it is mainline Christian has nothing to do with LDS
It is a Christian explain about their Trinity so it should be fun!
Ha Ha!
No you are mistaken the Chriistian believe that it was the Holy Spirit that impregnated Mary that is not LDS dcotrine!
Ha Ha!
Do you do this to be rude, expose your ignorance, or to denigrate others?
Just curious.
There is precious little in your post indicating that you are sincerely seeking understanding. There is much in your post indicating that you are picking a fight. What is the purpose of posting this?
"You're not supposed to understand it. It's a mystery."
Okay, I’ll make it simple . . .
People like having more than one god, so Catholics believe in three. It’s fun, there is a kind of freedom in it. But it is heretical to be a polytheist, so they call this belief in three gods “monotheism” which is a belief in one God. So basically, the Catholic belief in the Trinity is a way for polytheists to call themselves monotheists, and still be able to call everyone else heretical.
Other religions that have exactly the same Trinity, are indeed called heretical by the Catholics.
It’s sort of the grown up version of “up your nose with a rubber hose”.
To a liberal, the only sin is calling sin a sin.
That is demonstrably untrue, as can be seen by anyone who clicks on the link.
You don’t really believe that, do you?
If we knew the knowledge of God, that would make us an equal with God? Ain’t gonna happen ! However, we will all know God...he has promised in his word “all will be revealed”.
“You don’t really believe that, do you?”
Believe what?
Jesus Christ is Lord God of heaven and earth who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. His soul is the Father, His Divine Human, the Son and his action or proceeding, the Holy Spirit. He is infinite in His glorification. Conjunction with finite beings such as ourselves takes place via the Holy Spirit.
Proof? We are created in His image and likeness -- if you look in the mirror, so you see three? The three person trinity was created from the mindset of Christ as he was crucified on the cross.
These Three Persons are truly distinct one from another, but they are not three distinct Gods.
Christ is not the second God. He is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.
The Holy Spirit is not the third God. He is the Third Person of the Holy Trinity.
We mortals are used to there being one person per being: but the central being of Reality has three persons: three 'actors' if you will.
Sounds strange? It shouldn't do. One of the simplest, yet most provocative things we Christians say about God is that "God is Love".
Love is the unselfish giving of oneself to another: but how could God be Love unless God contained more than one 'self'?
So when we say "God is Love", we are at the same time affirming that "God is Trinity" - the love between God the Father and His Christ (the Second person of the Holy Trinity) is the Third person of the Trinity: the Holy Spirit.
God is not lonely. From all eternity, from before the creation of men and angels there has been a dance, a movement at the center of reality between the Persons of the Trinity. It is a dance of uncreated love that we cannot imagine, and yet we will be part of it for all eternity.
Sincerely hope this helps.
I don't know of a mainline Protestant denomination that DOESN'T believe in the Trinity. And they're not all heretics. Some hold heretical beliefs, but others are merely in schism.
Well, if you have a difficult time with unquantifiable abstractions, I’m sure you wont understand Taoist teachings either. Just because your mind habitually wraps everything into object entities does not mean that you know that real nature of them.
Ping to “resty explains the Trinity”...LOL!
Go understand “quantification” before you debate with the big kids.
Well, why don’t you explain instead of being deliberately obscure?
I noted the following on your account’s webpage:
“Absolutely no flaming! These Devotional /Caucus threads are intended to be ponder in nature. If a particular day’s offering says nothing to you, please just go on and wait for the next day. Consider these threads a DMZ of sorts, a place where a perpetual truce is in effect and a place where all other arguments and disagreements from other times and places are left behind.
Thank you for your respect! “
So why the about-face or were you insincere and deliberately missleading when you posted this info about yourself?
I agree that there is no motive in today’s post other than to denigrate others rather than truly trying to understand the issue. We are exhorted by God to refrain from such trivial arguments that only seek to divide.
Wait a minute. Does that mean Mary, mother of Jesus had two husbands, Father God and Joseph?
I wondered what all that early Mormon polyandry was all about.
I do not discern the chesed(lovingkindness) of Yah'shua.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
ding ding ding - We have a winner.
Mormon formula:
The Heavenly Father (one God) has sex with the Virgin Mary to impregnate her with Jesus (another God). Later, Jesus (another God) is sacrificed by the Heavenly Father (First God) to help men “progress eternally (becoming yet more Gods)....
....who can then create planets with their own Virgin Marys, who these new Gods can have sex with to start the process anew....
I see a very confused mind
The Lord shows his Son and the Son teaches man as spoken in the scriptures.
***
Here God is giving instructions to others to know how to do things
And God said, Let there be light
And God said, Let there be a firmament
And God said, Let the waters
And God called the dry land Earth;
And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass,
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament
And God said, Let US make man in OUR image,
Jesus said in John 5
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
2 Peter 1
12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, (creeds) when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that NO prophecy of the scripture is of any PRIVATE interpretation. (creed)
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
The Trinity is a standard Christian belief. 99%+ of Christian denominations hold the Trinity as a core belief. We’re talking everything from Catholics to Methodists to independent Baptists.
Christains that do not believe in the Trinity are the minority. A very, very small minority (1% max.)
If you come across any group calling itself christain that does not belive in the Trinity, LOUD alarm bells should start going off in your head. This group is not practicing anything near standard or accpeted Christianity.
Let me emphaized again. The Trinity is a standard Christian doctrine accepted by 99%+ of Christians and Christaian denominations througout the world.
So you are apparently saying the Bible is an instruction manual on how to create our own godhood and planets. Got it.
LOUD alarm bells should be going off in your head right now.
Yes. Mormons are not Christian
That Catholics are polytheists, but somehow other Christians that “have the exact same belief” in the Trinity are not. Mutually exclusive.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Cahtolics are not polythiests as far as the Trinity is concerned. You could put the Pope and Jerry Fallwell in a room and when it came to the Trinity they would be in exact agreement.
Alex Murphy posted this parody and did not idenitify so I searched the blog by the same author wrote the Trinity.
Mormon Elder Punished For Buying $300 Burgerhttp://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2341357/posts
I don't have a problem with that. All I am doing is adding infinities.
To know God is to love Him, and to love Him is to know Him.
So love love love Him. May be then you will know know know Him.
Too simple? Perhaps. But effective.
-Theo
I don’t understand it so it can’t be true.
Well put. Our choices in life have consequences, both physical and spiritual; God lays down boundries to protect us and teach us. It would be cruel, unfair, and mean of God NOT to punish sin; should Hitler get off scott free? the difficulty becomes that the level of perfection we need to be one with God is beyond us, so Jesus' sacrifice allows us to be clean enough to be one with God. There is punishment for evil, and Grace to allow us to rise beyond our shortcoings.
The mature response to God is gratitude that He would provide Grace to overcome our wilfullness and arrogance. We try to aim high, and when we do fail in the little things, Jesus is there to council us and forgive us. For myself, I am grateful to God that time and again, I can begin again, and am not stuck with in a hole with my failings, preventing me from even trying.
I am told that the Jehovah's Witnesses reject the Trinity because they belive Father+Son+Spirit equals 3 gods, and we are only to worship God. True, 1+1+1=3, but if you know a little math, 1x1x1=1. Works well for me.
Catholics may disagree with other Christians on some points, but on the Trinity we are in absolute agreement.
(We'll leave out for the time being the fringe goofballs who have started baptizing in the name of "Mother, Child and Womb" or "Rock, Redeemer, and Friend".
“The call finished with Donna speaking a prayer which begun “God, thank you for being such an awesome God…””
Beyond a mormon’s understanding that God is Awesome.
That speaks volumes.
I perfers sticking to the scriptures not creeds!
Creeds was started around 325 AD
Before that time there were no creeds taught by the authorized servants called by the Lord!
It is like todays Constitution so much has creep in that it is not the same as the founding fathers set up.
It is the nature of man to rearrange things for their own personal comfort but it still is NOT what was author wrote or the words the Lord originally given.
the Lord taught us how to pray and discern and to use the comforter who will teach each of us all things and to bring to rememberance.
www.tinyurl.com/mind-of-the-maker
The greatest book on the Trinity ever written. At least, the only book on the Trinity ever written that has a belly laugh on every page. By Dorothy L. Sayers.
And it's so respectful, too. Maybe the blog, and not the $300 hamburger, was why Mormon Missionary / Elder Cooper had been fired as district leader and moved to a different area....
Alex it is a blog it is a parody
Creeds was started around 325 AD
Before that time there were no creeds taught by the authorized servants called by the Lord!
Oh, resty, you are the best tool our side has got. :)
This is NOT Mormon it is mainline Christian has nothing to do with LDS
That is demonstrably untrue, as can be seen by anyone who clicks on the link.
****
In other words the Trinity was not from nor about LDS it from this students parody on mainline Christiains the blog is a parody from a 19 year old biology major who is a a vocal supporter of secularism and skepticism and is equally avid in his criticism of fundamentalism, pseudoscience and mysticism.
**
About
Andrew ‘Bef’ Milne is a 19 year old biology major at the University of Western Australia who firmly believes that writing in the third person makes his statements sound more credible and authoritative.
Bef is a vocal supporter of secularism and skepticism and is equally avid in his criticism of fundamentalism, pseudoscience and mysticism.
Bef is sometimes labelled a ‘religious bigot’, especially in relation to his activism against the Church of Scientology. Bef does hate Scientology, he also hates Christianity, Islam, Judaism and Norway. He does not hate Scientologists, Christians, Muslims or Jews. He does, however, hate Norwegians.
You are welcome mother creedy!
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He appeared in a body,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.
--I Timothy 3:16
Actually, you made it wrong.
People like having more than one god, so Catholics believe in three
Completely wrong; we believe in one God -- one divine substance -- who is manifest in three Persons (identities).
This is contrary to our ordinary experience, but not contradictory at all. (As Frank Sheed points out: you are a single person with a single substance -- your human nature. One person, one substance. A rock is a single substance but not a person. Zero persons, one substance. What is self-contradictory or illogical about understanding God to be three Persons and one substance? Nothing.)
The OT is perfectly clear that there is only one God. (Isaiah 43 and following. Try it on a Mormon sometime. They have no explanation for it.)
So Jesus did not believe in "three gods" when he said "baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". The only possible explanation for the obvious equality of "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" in that expression is that they are three co-equal persons.
And that's the orthodox belief, "the Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but there are not three gods but One God. And the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father." (Athanasian creed)
Other religions that have exactly the same Trinity, are indeed called heretical by the Catholics.
If they have "exactly the same Trinity" they are Christians, and, while they may be heretical on other points, they are orthodox on that one.
As I said, you didn't "make it simple," just wrong.
That's false; the Apostles' Creed was the Roman baptismal creed a century or more before 325.
I said around!
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