Tests could link skull to 1857 massacre

AP via KSL.com (Salt Lake City) ^ | May 20, 2009 | AP

[packrat35]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_River_Massacre

[Habibi]

“If modern day descendents can’t sit down and flip burgers as the read through the archives, they are simply immature.”

Good post. I’ve some geezer relatives that can’t stand to purchase a Toyota because of WWII, even though there are hardly any living Japanese that had anything to do with the conflict. I am terribly unpopular when I point out that they don’t believe in “Buy American”. They are, “Don’t buy Japanese” types. Irregardless, they still let me sleep with their daughter when we visit, and raise their grandchildren.

And since when does Free Republic require you to X a box stating you’re mature when you sign up? If they did that we’d have less than half the posts we do now.

[packrat35]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hawk_War_(Utah)

[rustbucket]

I had read that, but I didn’t remember how many children that families often had back then. The monument, which is on the side of a hill overlooking the site, brought that home to me.

There were flowers at the monument apparently placed there by relatives.

[passionfruit]

All of the children over the age of 7 were murdered and many under that age too. There were 17 surviving children, and they were the lucky ones.

Even after all of the adults were killed, they continued to kill some of the children who were begging for their lives, according to the children who survived.

[Colofornian]

It would not surprise me at all that mormons kept bones from the massacre, as they kept everything else from the pioneers. They kept the wagons, livestock, provisions, money and 17 surviving children from the massacre. Children that survived said they saw mormons wearing their parents clothes (and the bodies had been stripped naked and left on the desert). The investigating officer was able to identify a unique and fancy wagon that had been in the train, that was later owned by mormons.

Did these Mormons' bishop ever ask @ temple-recommend checklist time if they tithed on these "confiscated" items from Arkansas?

[passionfruit]

From Captain Carlton's report, the items were auctioned off from the tithing office in Cedar City:

"The property was brought to Cedar City and sold at public auction. It was called in Cedar City, and is so called now by the Facetious Mormons, "property taken at the siege of Sebastopol." The clothing stripped from the corpses, bloody and with bits of flesh upon it, shredded by the bullets from the persons of the poor creatures who wore it, was placed in the cellar of the tithing office (an official building), where it lay about three weeks, when it was brought away by some of the party; but witnesses do not know whether it was sold or given away. It is said the cellar smells of it even to this day.

It is reported that John D. Lee, Haight, and Philip Klingensmith (the latter lives in Cedar City) went to Salt Lake City immediately after the massacre, and counseled with Brigham Young about what should be done with the property. They took with them the ready money they got from the murdered emigrants and offered it to Young. He said he would have nothing to do with it. He told them to divide the cattle and cows among the poor. They had taken some of the cattle to Salt Lake City merchants there. Lee told Brigham that the Indians would not be satisfied if they did not have a share of the cattle. Brigham left it to Lee to make the distribution. One or two of the Mormons did not like it that Lee had this authority, as they say he swindled them out of their share. Lee was the smartest man of the lot.

The wagons, carriages, and rifles, etc., were distributed among the Mormons. Lee has a carriage reported be one of them. The Indians have but few of the rifles.

Much of this seems to be corroborated by a man named Whitelock, a dentist, now at Camp Floyd. Whitelock says he was told by a Mormon, who acknowledged that he was present at the massacre, but who is now in California, "that orders to destroy the emigrants first came from above" (Mormon Leadership) and that a party of armed men under the command of a man named John D. Lee, who was then a bishop in the church, but who has since (as Brigham Young says) been deposed, left the settlements of Beaver City, north of Parowan, Parowan City, and Cedar City on what was called a "secret expedition," and after an absence of a few days returned, bringing back strange wagons, cattle, horses, mules and also household property.

There is legal proof that this property was sold at the official tithing office of the church."

[Sherman Logan]

Which textbooks and why? (Anybody know?)

Considering the fact that it is far and away the worst atrocity ever committed by American whites against other American whites, it had a remarkably low profile until quite recently.

I grew up in Missouri, where considerable time was spent in state history class discussing the Mormon War and other atrocities against the Mormons. The atrocity with the greatest number of victims had 13 or 17 males killed, I forget which.

As far as I remember, there was absolutely no mention of MMM, which realistically turns the Mormon/gentile conflict into one with a great deal of fault on both sides, not the unprovoked persecution of innocent sectarians that was presented in class.

I can absolutely guarantee that if a similar atrocity had been committed by American whites against blacks or Mexican-Americans it would have received a great deal more publicity over the years. MMM doesn't fit into the generally accepted narrative of American history.

[Elsie]

Elsie, I felt you would want to address this comment...

Nothing I could say would change the mindset.

Only the Holy Spirit can break thru this attitude about 'religion'.

[Elsie]

"There's just a big gap between 1857 and 1982," Reid said. "I'm trained to worry about things like that."

Oh??

There is a 'big gap' between what the LDS Organization® says the Book of Abraham of MORMONism says and what Egyptologists have translated the papyrus says as to it's meaning!

WORRY about THAT!

[greyfoxx39]

One could surmise that all the MMM victims have been baptized, confirmed as members of the LDS church and have had their endowments done so that they could all make the choice to continue on after their deaths in the mormon "plan of salvation".    (See, "SALVATION" http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2255508/posts?page=1)   This file is taken from the LDS.org Family Search site.   http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=/eng/search/ancestorsearchresults.asp       Family Group Record

Search Results | Download GEDCOM |   FamilySearch™ Ancestral File v4.19

Husband's Name
	Alexander FANCHER (AFN:1996-1F8)							Pedigree
	Born:			1812		Place:	, Overton, Tennessee
	Died:			11 Sep 1857		Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
	Buried:					Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
	Married:			12 May 1836		Place:	, Coles, Illinois
	Father:		Isaac FANCHER (AFN:ZFZF-CK)					Family
	Mother:		Unknown UNK08(FANCHER) (AFN:1995-ZWT)
Wife's Name
	Eliza INGRAM (AFN:1996-1GG)							Pedigree
	Born:			1825		Place:	, , Illinois
	Died:			11 Sep 1857		Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
	Buried:					Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
	Married:			12 May 1836		Place:	, Coles, Illinois
	Father:
	Mother:
Children
	1.	Sex	Name
		M	Hampton FANCHER (AFN:1996-1HN)					Pedigree
		Born:		1838		Place:	, Coles, Illinois
		Died:		11 Sep 1857		Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
		Buried:				Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
	2.	Sex	Name
		M	William FANCHER (AFN:1996-1JV)					Pedigree
		Born:		1840		Place:	, Coles, Illinois
		Died:		11 Sep 1857		Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
		Buried:				Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
	3.	Sex	Name
		F	Mary FANCHER (AFN:1996-1K3)					Pedigree
		Born:		1841		Place:	, , Missouri
		Died:		11 Sep 1857		Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
		Buried:				Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
	4.	Sex	Name
		M	Thomas FANCHER (AFN:1996-1L9)					Pedigree
		Born:		1843		Place:	, , Missouri
		Died:		11 Sep 1857		Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
		Buried:				Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
	5.	Sex	Name
		F	Martha FRANCHER (AFN:1996-1MH)					Pedigree
		Born:		1846		Place:	, Carrol, Arkansas
		Died:		11 Sep 1857		Place:	Mountain Meadow, , Utah
		Buried:				Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
	6.	Sex	Name
		F	Sarah G. (Twin) FANCHER (AFN:1996-1NP)					Pedigree
		Born:		1849		Place:	, Carrol, Arkansas
		Died:		11 Sep 1857		Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
		Buried:				Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
	7.	Sex	Name
		F	Margaret A. (Twin) FANCHER (AFN:1996-1PW)					Pedigree
		Born:		1849		Place:	, Caroll, Arkansas
		Died:		11 Sep 1857		Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
		Buried:				Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
	8.	Sex	Name
		M	Kit Carson FANCHER (AFN:1996-1Q4)					Pedigree
		Born:		1853		Place:	<, Caroll, Arkansas>
	9.	Sex	Name
		F	Margaret A. FRANCHER (AFN:1W15-GXV)					Pedigree
		Born:		1849		Place:	, Of Carrol, Ark
		Died:		11 Sep 1857		Place:	Mt. Meadows, , Utah
	10.	Sex	Name
		M	Christopher Carson "Kit" FANCHER (AFN:1W15-GZ3)					Pedigree
		Born:		1852		Place:	, Of Carrol, Ark
	11.	Sex	Name
		F	Trefina FANCHER (AFN:1996-1RB)					Pedigree
		Born:		10 Nov 1855		Place:	<, Caroll, Arkansas>
		Died:		30 Apr 1897		Place:	, Carroll, Arkansas
	12.	Sex	Name
		F	Trifinia D. "Annie" FANCHER (AFN:1W15-H08)					Pedigree
		Born:		10 Nov 1855		Place:	, Of Carrol, Ark
		Died:				Place:	, Of Carrol, Ark

---

[passionfruit]

One could also surmise that the murder victims wouldn't choose to join the faith of those that:

1. lied about them to incite the attacks (the false story that they poisoned a well and the meat of a dead steer, that they had boasted of owning the very gun that was used to kill Joseph Smith),

2. Refused to sell them provisions knowing they were heading across the Mojave Desert with 137 people,

3. laid siege against them for days in the desert heat, cutting off access to water,

4. tricked them into surrendering and giving up their weapons, led them out into the open,

5. attacked and killed all but 17 tiny children,

6. stripped the bodies naked and left them to be consumed by wild animals, leaving the parched bones for 2 years until the U. S. Army was sent to bury them,

7. stole everything the pioneers had and distributed them amongst themselves.

8. after the fact, they blamed the entire massacre on the indians. The mormons planned and carried out after bringing the indians into this by lying to them to gain their assistance.

There was nothing in this entire story that would imply that the mormons here were decent, or honest, or men of God, and in no way did they do anything that would cause the victims to aspire to the mormon faith.

[Elsie]

For decades it sat on a shelf in a brown cardboard box -- a skull pierced in the back with an apparent bullet hole and linked by a typewritten note to a dark and violent chapter in the history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

This is an OBVIOUS attempt by hateful bigots (probably Baptists did it) to discredit the Only True church of Christ!

They no doubt STOLE this skull long ago from a remote graveyard after seeing the date of death on the eroding tombstone; shot a hole in the back and then planted it in that SLC pawnshop some 3 decades ago.

The plotters (some who may have already died) have just been waiting: biding their time; until NOW!

---

Watch the accusations begin to fly!!

[Old Mountain man]

None?

[Old Mountain man]

Glad you forgot about the War of Northern Aggression.

[Old Mountain man]

To all Haun’s Mill deniers.

[Old Mountain man]

Gee, I’ve been through the Temple hundreds of times and never heard that one. You been listening to too much preachin for the pocketbook!

[colorcountry]

Nana - the Mormons did away with that disgusting bit of vengence oath back in the 1920’s

That’s why OMM doesn’t recognize it.

[svcw]

History, history, we don't need no stinking history

(unless it discredits Christians).

[Godzilla]

I'd be interested in hearing what overtures have been made through the decades from the descendents of perpetrators to the descendents of the victims.

They were probably proxy baptized.