Posted on 10/06/2008 12:11:40 PM PDT by TaraP
Absolutely yes. I think it happened in 70 AD.
I guess you are saying Jesus is no longer concerned with this world because when we die we are finally home..out of this world...
Jesus is indeed concerned with this world - the Church is his Kingdom on Earth, and it is a Kingdom without end.
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New Antichrist detector will keep you safe for just 3 EZ payments of $19.95, say Japanese inventors
I am not very concerned with the Rapture, though I would not expect it till some time later- the time of the 7th Trump (with the sound of a trump and the voice of an archangel) seems comfortable to me... I believe we will be protected from the bowls and vials, but there is much to do before the Spirit can stand aside and let that which must be let.
The War of Magog may also be the "binding of the two sticks", as Judah and Ephraim are not yet together as one under one flag... Ephraim (the House of Israel) doesn't even know his name. This too must be revealed and come to pass before the end can come.
I believe it’s very unlikely that REV was written after 70A.D.
Virtually impossible.
Hi Quix, here is a short article from a Pre-Trib website that explains how many scholars (in the Christian world) have come to say that the book of Revelation was written much later than 70 A.D.
“The Date of the Book of Revelation”
http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=232
It’s really not up to me, personally (i.e., from my own scholarship) to show or prove these things, as I’m not in that field to do that. However, there are many others who are very qualified and are in that field, to be able to do so. Therefore, I simply give you some information on that (and also for all the others who may want to read it and understand why the Book of Revelation was written after 70 A.D.).
Of course (and for the benefit of those who “wonder why”), the reason why several posters will be fighting over that issue of when the Book of Revelation was written is because if it was written after 70 A.D. — that pretty much wipes out the Preterist position. To maintain their “position” (of “interpretation” of the Scriptures and what they “mean”) they have to maintain that the Book or Revelation was written before 70 A.D. and that it was describing (ahead of time of when it was written) the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem (that happened in 70 A.D).
If (on the other hand) the book of Revelation was written after 70 A.D. — it’s obvious that there are other “sets of events” that are being described in the Book of Revelation and are “yet to come” (hence the “Futurist” position of interpreting what the Scriptures say).
Overall, to me, it’s pretty clear that these are “future events” which have yet to fully happen and there are many prophecies in the Bible (in the Old Testament) which are to the Jews and are yet to be fulfilled and will happen “in the future”.
[TaraP pinged just for reference to this subject...]
You were saying — “So do you believe in the 2nd Coming?
Of course I do, and the Bible tells us that it is still in the future. In other words, the return of Jesus Christ, to set up the Kingdom of God on this earth — has not happened yet... LOL... (in case someone looking around the world hasn’t guessed that yet...).
You also said — “I guess you are saying Jesus is no longer concerned with this world because when we die we are finally home..out of this world...”
Well, someone — definitely — would *not* say that about my thinking on the matter... :-)
You might also look at this book by Randy Alcorn...
“Heaven”
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0842379428
You can read parts of this same book, here —
http://books.google.com/books?id=sxoM9JdrEqIC
You also might want to read John F. Walvoord’s material and articles —
http://www.walvoord.com/author.php?author_id=1&scid=0
All those articles (which is fairly extensive) will address many of the issues you have been talking about and posting here.
Have fun... :-)
Where does the Bible tell us that it *is* still in the future?
If the rapture occurs before November 4th and Bambi wins.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
One World Government may happen on Jan 20, 2009.
Yet again I appear to be a bird of ‘rare’ plumage.
. . .
I believe Rev was written before 70AD
AND
that it is essentially totally about yet to occur future events—though I believe events scheduled for our era, lifetime.
I’ve heard a lot of Calvinists claim after 70AD for REV as proof that it was about the fall of Jerusalem etc. and other such irrational nonsense.
Thanks for the link. Will see when I can get to it.
Well, right here is where we go back to when the Book of Revelation was written. You say it was written before 70 A.D. and I say it was written after 70 A.D. (from what I have already read from others who have done the work on it) You can read a short article on the matter from the post I gave above, although there are lots more material out there on the subject matter.
The meaning of the book of Revelation being written *after* 70 A.D. — is — that these events being spoken about are still “future”.
In other words, what the Bible says is to come, hasn’t come yet, with the Apostle John writing those things in Revelation in or around 95 A.D. (look to other scholars for anything more precise than that, not from me...).
That’s how I come to that — of what the Bible says.
And some words from Jesus would help here...
Matthew 24:11-31
11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
15 ”Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),
16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.
18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.
19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it.
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 ”Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I haven’t seen these events happen yet. I read that perhaps a million or a million and a half Jews died or were killed in that Roman siege of Jerusalem (leading up to 70 A.D.).
But I also read that about six million Jews were killed in Hitler’s Third Reich. Now, those numbers of Jews killed tells me that it was a greater calamity just a few decades ago in Hitler’s Third Reich, than what happened a couple of millennia ago (in 70 A.D.). Thus those Scriptures obviously were not talking about what happened in 70 A.D. (but a yet future event).
In fact, around the world, many millions more peoples in other countries have been killed in greater numbers than six million Jews. So, it can be argued that what happened at that time was Kindergarten stuff, compared to what has been happening recently in the world with the various despotic regimes and the millions upon millions being killed (but that is another matter). For the Jews, themselves, their numbers killed in 70 A.D. was very much smaller than the numbers recently killed in the Holocaust (around six million).
The Bible describes it (in Matthew) as such an “apocalyptic event” so that there will never be any other time in the earth’s history that will equal it. Well, I’m sure that the Jews during Hitler’s Third Reich will be disputing that one (if someone maintains that it was in 70 A.D. which was worse than what happened with Hitler).
Again, it says —
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
And — in addition — I haven’t seen that we’ve reached the point at any time in human history where no flesh would be saved on this earth. That is yet to come.
Furthermore,
I haven’t seen any events in history where they match up to the Book of Revelation. Just a “sample” of some items that don’t match up to anything in history...
Rwevelation 9:13-15
13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”
15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind.
I don’t see an event in history where a third of mankind was killed (especially by angels who were released for that “hour and day and month and year” — for that specific task...). There is more killed than that one event of a third of mankind — but — this is something that is prepared for “the hour and day and month and year” — to kill 1/3 of mankind. That’s quite a calamity!
Revelation 14:6-11
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—
7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
I also don’t see an event in the history of mankind (anytime after or before 70 A.D.) where an angel preached the “everlasting gospel” to those who dwell on the earth — to “every nation, tribe, tongue and people”...
I just don’t find that happening (yet) anywhere...
Revelation 16:17-21
17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”
18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.
19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.
Also, in describing what is happening to that great city Babylon, I don’t see an event in history where “every island fled away” and “mountains were not found”. I also don’t find an event in history where the “cities of the nations fell”. I just don’t see where that happened.
I also don’t see where — “Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.”
As to the “time frame” (i.e., length of time) when this happened, see below...
Revelation 24:1-24
1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!
3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.”
4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6 Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.
7 In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’
8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
9 ”The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning,
10 standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’
11 And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore:
12 merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble;
13 and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men.
14 The fruit that your soul longed for has gone from you, F98 and all the things which are rich and splendid have gone from you, and you shall find them no more at all.
15 The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, will stand at a distance for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls!
17 For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’ Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance
18 and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What is like this great city?’
19 They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.’
20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!”
21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore.
22 The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore.
23 The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”
I don’t see a city where this happened — in that “her plagues will come in one day” and that “she will be utterly burned with fire”. Also, I don’t see where it happened in just “one hour” either [not too many things can cause that to happen in just one hour and burn it utterly with fire, but I know of one thing that can do that...].
In addition, after this happens the city “shall not be found anymore”. Well, I don’t see where this happened to a city (in one hour, in one day) and was so thoroughly destroyed that it is never found anymore. That’s another thing that appears to be for the future.
Revelation 19:11-21
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,
18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
And likewise, here, I don’t see Jesus Christ doing this today — “And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron.” I don’t see Christ ruling the nations of the world with a rod of iron, today. So, that is obviously future.
Furthermore, I haven’t see the beast, the mark of the beast or his image, and neither do I have any record (or any indication) of any kind where the beast and the false prophet were cast “alive” into the lake of fire.
I don’t see where Christ came and He had on His robe the name written “KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS” — I just haven’t seen that happen or heard of it being recorded that it happened.
Revelation 20:1-3
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
I haven’t seen that event happen yet, nor have I heard of it happening. Furthermore, it also is very clear and apparent that Satan is still deceiving the nations, as I see plenty of examples of that not only abundantly in this country, but in other countries, to say nothing of the Islamic countries where Satan’s *deception* is especially grievous.
Revelation 20:5-10
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
And I haven’t seen anyone reigning with Christ for a thousand years, and neither have I see Satan being released at the expiration of that thousand years and neither have I seen him go out to deceive the nations once again (after having been imprisoned for that 1,000 years) nor have I seen Satan thrown into the lake of fire, subsequent to that.
I didn’t see that group of people “whose number is as the sand of the sea” going up and surrounding the camp of the saints and the beloved city and having fire from God come down and devour them. I don’t see anywhere — where that has happened yet.
Revelation 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
And then, I haven’t see that once Satan was cast into the lake of fire, that the “great white throne” appeared with all the subsequent “dead, small and great, standing before God” and having the books opened. I haven’t seen the sea giving up the dead, nor Death and Hades giving up the dead, for them to be judged at the Great White Throne.
And, finally, I haven’t seen “Death and Hades cast into the lake of fire, along with all those others who were judged at the great white throne.
I haven’t seen any of that.
These are just a few of the things yet to come. I definitely didn’t list everything... LOL...
The reason why I haven’t seen any of these things — is — because it’s all still “future”.
When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night, he checks his closet for Chuck Norris.
Chuck Norris doesn’t read books. He stares them down until he gets the information he wants.
There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.
Outer space exists because it’s afraid to be on the same planet with Chuck Norris.
Chuck Norris does not sleep. He waits.
Chuck Norris is currently suing NBC, claiming Law and Order are trademarked names for his left and right legs.
Chuck Norris is the reason why Waldo is hiding.
Chuck Norris counted to infinity - twice.
You said — “that it is essentially totally about yet to occur future events—though I believe events scheduled for our era, lifetime.”
I see what you’re saying. And, I see you’re not maintaining that because of the Preterist position — which is *absolutely essential* to their position. That’s usually a “dead-giveaway” to me that someone is a Preterist — but, in your case, it’s not... :-)
And — “I’ve heard a lot of Calvinists claim after 70AD for REV as proof that it was about the fall of Jerusalem etc. and other such irrational nonsense.”
I’m not sure I would be able to follow their reasoning there. That doesn’t quite make sense to me. I may have heard (a time or two) someone talk about a “near” and “far” part of prophecy, in that there can be a two-fold aspect to prophecy in that it tells of a near event and a far event, too. I don’t know if those people (that you’re talking about) would be referring to it in that way.
Thanks for your comments...
My main point was not that you can't argue that these things are still future, or that you can't interpret the Bible that way. It's that you can't just straight-up claim that the Bible "says so" without an interpretive framework to base that on. The Bible "says" no such thing unless accept certain underlying premises.
Your passage on millions of Jews dying in the siege, or during the holocaust, or millions of others dying in other events misses the point. The "end" being spoken of was to covenental, not apocalyptic in the sense that you think.
The Bible describes it (in Matthew) as such an “apocalyptic event” so that there will never be any other time in the earth’s history that will equal it.
And in that same passage, Jesus tells his listeners that "all these things" are to happen to their generation. Spin that all you want, that's what He said.
As for the rest of your arguments, largely from Revelation, I think that where we differ is in the nature of the fulfillment of those prophecies.
You seem to expect a (kind of) literal fulfillment, although if you're like most dispensational pre-millers you kind of pick and choose what's literal and what's not. But if you look at Old Testament prophecies regarding the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities, the language is similar to that used in Revelation, yet the fulfillment was in the form of foreign armies. Why expect a different "kind" of fulfillment of the prophecies in Revelation?
You said — “I notice you conveniently cut off your quoting of Matthew 24 before verse 34, but that’s no surprise.”
Well, I was already stretching it by quoting as much as I was. But, additionally, I didn’t really think it was that difficult to understand. The generation Jesus is talking about is the generation in which these things are happening.
It’s also the generation in which the following is happening...
Matthew 25:31-46
31 ”When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’
45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
And, once again, I haven’t seen that this is the case. There is no record of Jesus coming in His glory and subsequently Jesus gathering all the nations before Him. And no record of Him dividing the sheep from the goats and casting the goats into outer darkness (as He says elsewhere). I see no record of Jesus speaking these words to the various peoples and nations.
This is, yet again, another indication of a future event, since it hasn’t happened — and also — another clear indication that these words are for the generation that sees all these things (hence, the generation He’s referring to [in that you bring it up, up above]).
And then you say — “My main point was not that you can’t argue that these things are still future, or that you can’t interpret the Bible that way. It’s that you can’t just straight-up claim that the Bible “says so” without an interpretive framework to base that on. The Bible “says” no such thing unless accept certain underlying premises.”
There’s no special interpretative framework to understand the plain meaning of these words of the Bible, the Words from God — other than the same way we “understand” anything else we read. It’s not a “special way” of understanding things — it’s the “standard way” and “ordinary way” that people understand things. It’s a simple and plain reading of it, in that what the Bible says, it means and what it means, it says.
One takes the “plain and ordinary sense” of it (of the words and language) — whether it’s referring to an example, a symbolic illustration, a parable, or a future event. One takes it plainly as it is meant.
When we are told that Jesus is returning, we take that in an ordinary and plain sense. What would it mean if I told you I was returning (back to a table where I was sitting with you?). And if Jesus is returning in Glory to judge all the nations — one takes that to mean He’s returning to judge all the nations.
When we are told — “This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Then that means — “This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”
If we are told that Jesus will gather the nations before Him (when He returns) and separate out the sheep from the goats (in regards to what the Bible tells us is the righteous and the unrighteous [and we are already told how to be righteous, i.e., in “salvation”]) — then that means Jesus will gather all the nations before Him and separate out the sheep from the goats.
If we are told that Satan will be imprisoned for 1,000 years and won’t be able to deceive the nations during that time — it means (plainly and simply) Satan will be imprisoned for 1,000 years and won’t be able to deceive the nations during that time.
And when Jesus say, “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.” Then it means — “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
I hope you’re getting the “pattern” here.... LOL...
You also said — “Your passage on millions of Jews dying in the siege, or during the holocaust, or millions of others dying in other events misses the point. The “end” being spoken of was to covenental, not apocalyptic in the sense that you think.”
Jesus was talking about a set of conditions — “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
Jesus was just talking about wars, pestilences, earthquakes, being killed, being betrayed, being hated, false prophets, false Christs, and so on. These are all “real-life events” that He was describing. So, when He says — “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.” — He’s summing up these real-life events and saying that it is a totally unique and “one-of-a-kind” set of events that will never be repeated in the history of the world. That’s the plain and ordinary sense meaning of it.
And from that plain and simple meaning of the language — it’s apparent that there have been worse conditions than what we saw back in 70 A.D. Hence, the very easy conclusion that this is not the time that Jesus described (in 70 A.D.).
And then — “And in that same passage, Jesus tells his listeners that “all these things” are to happen to their generation. Spin that all you want, that’s what He said.”
Well, Jesus doesn’t say that it’s *their* generation. He describes a whole series of events and then says “this generation”. The connection in the plain and ordinary sense of it — is simply that it’s the generation that sees all these things.
That plain and simple understanding of it is *reinforced* by plainly seeing that the set of events in 70 A.D. was not something that was so severe (as in the descriptions that Jesus was giving earlier) that it would *never* be repeated or exceeded in the history of the world. It’s easily been exceeded since then. THUS, that wasn’t the time Jesus talked about (i.e., not 70 A.D.).
And finally — “You seem to expect a (kind of) literal fulfillment, although if you’re like most dispensational pre-millers you kind of pick and choose what’s literal and what’s not. But if you look at Old Testament prophecies regarding the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities, the language is similar to that used in Revelation, yet the fulfillment was in the form of foreign armies. Why expect a different “kind” of fulfillment of the prophecies in Revelation?”
Yes, it’s a fulfillment in the plain and ordinary sense of the language that was used to describe it (from the Bible). If that’s the meaning of the term “literal” that you’re using, then yes, that’s it. It’s in the plain and ordinary sense of the language and that the Bible means what it says and it says what it means.
In that sense, all the Bible speaks “literally” — and uses a variety of language forms to describe what it’s speaking about in a plain and ordinary sense. If Jesus is using a parable, it’s a plain and ordinary use of that parable to say what He wants to say. You can tell from the language being used what the Bible is describing and what type of language form is being used. It’s no worse nor any more difficult (in the basic concept of what language is) than understanding what we’re writing to one another on this board. If the Bible uses a term, such as “like ‘such-and-such’” — it means that it’s making a comparison to something else. If the Bible makes a direct description of it, it’s a direct description and can be taken as such. This is a plain and ordinary way of using language and that’s the way one understands what God is saying to mankind, through His Word in the Bible.
We can also see how the Bible *uses* language in its other parts, to understand another section of the Bible. For example, we can see, very clearly, that one single sentence of prophecy can very well span many years — with simply a comma (in our version) separating the years apart — of the prophecy given.
Jesus showed that very clearly, when He read a prophecy about Himself and stopped in mid-sentence and said that what He read was fulfilled in the hearer’s ears (at that moment). Jesus left out the last part of the sentence, because that had not been fulfilled yet. So, “by example” we see that we can read “gaps of time” in some sentences of prophecy (simply because Jesus gave us that example). We can learn “from the Bible” (itself) what the Bible means in what it says.
In other instances we have the Bible explaining another section of its own writings. Jesus (for one example) did this in explaining a parable to His disciples. By those means, we gain the understanding of what a portion of Scripture meant.
These are all instances of the “literal” reading of the Bible.
And after all is said (up above) I just come back to the plain and ordinary sense of the Bible and what it says about the times to come — and it’s plain language indicates very clearly to me that Jesus is coming back again, that He hasn’t returned yet (the conditions described have not been met), that He will rule and reign over the nations of this world upon setting up His Kingdom on this earth, and that the Devil will be imprisoned for 1,000 years, the end of which he will be allowed to go free to deceive the nations once again for a short time, during which time he gathers a large number of people to come up against the camp of the saints, and then Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire, the unsaved dead will be judged at the great white throne and we see the New Jerusalem coming down to earth (and you can read the rest of it... :-) ...)
And then we see the closing words —
Revelation 22:18-21
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
AND LIKEWISE, here..., the Bible says what it means and it means what it says — so I would advise anyone to keep that in mind when talking about these things in the Bible.
Yeah, that's the usual spin. But it seems to me the "plain and ordinary" reading of this passage would be that he's talking about the generation of the people he's talking to, and any other reading of it is a stretch.
There’s no special interpretative framework to understand the plain meaning of these words of the Bible, the Words from God — other than the same way we “understand” anything else we read. It’s not a “special way” of understanding things — it’s the “standard way” and “ordinary way” that people understand things. It’s a simple and plain reading of it, in that what the Bible says, it means and what it means, it says.
I don't know that it's a "special" way of understanding, but prophecy needs to be read as prophecy, and it seems to make sense to look at how similar prophetic language in the Old Testament was fulfilled, i.e. the captivities of Israel by Assyria and Babylon. It seems you would be left making the same arguments; that because stars weren't falling from the sky and such, the Babylonian captivity didn't properly fulfill the prophecies.
And from that plain and simple meaning of the language — it’s apparent that there have been worse conditions than what we saw back in 70 A.D.
I'm not ready to concede that.
As for the rest of your arguments - "I haven't seen it happen (personally or in history) according to the terms of my understanding, therefore it hasn't happened yet, therefore the Bible says it's in the future," you're free to argue that. But to say that the "plain meaning" of the Bible alone is sufficient to make those claims is absurd, unless you assume that the Bible was written this afternoon. Otherwise the "plain meaning" of Daniel's 70 weeks is that 490 years from right now we'll see the Messiah for the first time, and somewhere in the future Isaiah's prophecies about a savior will come true. After all, they use future tense, and that's the "plain meaning" of the text.
Anything beyond that involves at least a bit of critical thinking, interpretation, and some underlying premises. Realizing that the prophecies relating to Christ's (first) coming have been fulfilled requires a bit of knowledge about history and about the New Testament. Believing that the so-called "end times" prophecies are still in the future also requires some assumptions, or at least some premises. The "plain meaning" alone and without historical context and interpretation is insufficient to say much of anything about the subject; otherwise you'd be saying the same thing even after a "Second Coming" occurred on your own terms - "The Bible says it's still in the future; I don't care that all Christians were just raptured, it's the 'plain meaning' of the text!"
Now - you're free to make whatever arguments you want from the text and from your understanding of history. But don't pretend you're simply relying on a plain reading of the text devoid of any other influence; it's just not true.
Yes, I know..., you’re no doubt a Preterist.... LOL... I understand that and what it means in regards to your assertion that Jesus has already come.
On the other hand, I’m looking “forward” to Jesus Christ coming again, setting up His Kingdom here on this earth, for that 1,000 year reign, during which time Satan will be bound and imprisoned.
I’m waiting for that event to be fulfilled in which we are told in Acts - “This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”
So, about all I can say is that while you’ve already seen that Jesus has returned, I’m waiting for Him to return and set up His Kingdom upon this earth.
Now I know the following (below in these verses) didn’t happen yet and so these will be the words that I give other Christians for comfort (as the Bible says to do)...
[**The reason why I know the following has not happened and we can look forward to that, in the future, is because we have no account or record of this ever happening to the Christians or the church — no account of all Christians, who were then alive in the world — all being caught up to be with Jesus Christ (and all the “dead in Christ” having been raised just prior to that). **]
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
You said — “Now - you’re free to make whatever arguments you want from the text and from your understanding of history. But don’t pretend you’re simply relying on a plain reading of the text devoid of any other influence; it’s just not true.”
Well..., those verses above remain words of “comfort” for Christians of today as we await the return of the Lord.
Thank you for your comments.
The replacementarians and anti-future-prophecy-fulfillment folks are a dogged, set-in-their-ways lot hereon.
More power to you in your efforts, however.
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