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To: Tax-chick
If I might, I'd like to continue the line of questioning on the actual process of the transformation of the host and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ.

The Bible says that God is present whenever two or more are gathered in His name. So God is already present at the Mass simply because the faithful have gathered together to honor Him with worship.

God cannot be "ordered" to transubstantiate the host and wine. No priest has that capacity. So, at most, the host and wine are transformed because God agrees to do so. The words "This is My Body" and "This is My Blood" cannot be more than a respectful, reverent invitation from the priest on behalf of the faithful for God to perform the tranformative act. The fact that the host and the wine are transformed is an entirely free and unconstrained act on the part of God for His own purposes. The fact that they are always transformed is a sign of God's lovingkindness to the community of believers.

God knows the intentions of each person's heart. It seems reasonable that, if a person receives a consecrated host with dishonest intent, God would know this instantly and cause the holy substance of the host to depart from it. To me, arguing that the holy substance of the host is somehow locked into it is the same as arguing that the priest does have the power to summon God to transform it and cause it to remain transformed until released through completion of the sacremental act.

That, of course, is impossible. God is no more "required" to keep the host in its holy state than He was "required" to transform it to begin with.

If this is the case, the moment that the student, or the professor, or anyone else helping them receives the consecrated host, God sees these impure intentions of their hearts and, to prevent its defilement, instantaneously transubstantiates the consecrated host back into an ordinary wafer. Therefore, the consecrated host can only be sacremental for those who receive and consume it in the same respectful and reverential spirit that invited (not caused) its transformation to begin with.

The atheist professor, the obnoxious student, the aiders and abetters of this controversy, no matter how cleaver, will never really possess a consecrated host because their own hearts reveal their deceit and cause its transformation back into ordinary stuff, as you put it.

19 posted on 07/15/2008 6:24:43 PM PDT by Captain Rhino ( If we have the WILL to do it, there is nothing built in China that we cannot do without.)
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To: Captain Rhino
I was hoping someone would point this out.

If the candles on the altar are lit, there is consecrated host in the tabernacle, and if I remember my rules correctly, that is the only time one needs to genuflect.

But he could easily get his hands on a consecrated host by having in impostor go up for the sacrament and just keep the host.

23 posted on 07/15/2008 6:33:11 PM PDT by firebrand
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To: Captain Rhino
The words "This is My Body" and "This is My Blood" cannot be more than a respectful, reverent invitation from the priest on behalf of the faithful for God to perform the tranformative act. The fact that the host and the wine are transformed is an entirely free and unconstrained act on the part of God for His own purposes. The fact that they are always transformed is a sign of God's lovingkindness to the community of believers.

If you were to spend some time reading the actual words of worship in the Latin rite, you'd see that the service is littered with prayers ASKING God to, well, do whatever it is that he does in the Eucharistic celebration. It's not a matter of priestly mojo, but rather a matter of what we take to be a promise.

God knows the intentions of each person's heart. It seems reasonable that, if a person receives a consecrated host with dishonest intent, God would know this instantly and cause the holy substance of the host to depart from it.

A problem with this line of thought is that it makes the sacramental presence of God dependent on the inner state of the recipient. The motives of most of us are mixed and impure, part good, part not so good. If we were to adopt the notion of the presence or efficacy of the sacrament being effective or "there" dependent on the state of the believer, we run the risk of a works-based sacramental theology and of the development of a kind of internal sacramental casuistry.

There are similar problems with Catholic sacramental theology in that we say that to receive the sacrament if one is in a state of mortal sin is itself a sin, and in certain cases a mortal sin. But I think our glib account of that is that Jesus is savior AND judge, and if we will not receive Him as savior we will, willy-nilly, receive Him as judge. (As I said, it's glib.)

So the "locked in" argument is separated from the "priestly power" stand by our theology, and, as I Say, we think God's sacramental presence is an act of grace. A REAL act, existing by itself. God's presence is always grace, but for whatever reason, not all experience grace, ah, gracefully.

IN any event, The young man in Florida and this twit of a professor are playing with fire. We can hope that it is a healing fire. But there's no doubt in my mind that it's fire.

35 posted on 07/15/2008 7:24:12 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Captain Rhino

***God knows the intentions of each person’s heart. It seems reasonable that, if a person receives a consecrated host with dishonest intent, God would know this instantly and cause the holy substance of the host to depart from it.***

This is actually untrue, as is evidenced by St. Paul’s words in Holy Scripture. “Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.” I Corinthians 11:27-30 St. Paul’s words clearly say that it is the Lord and that it is possible to receive Him unworthily and to also not discern that it is He. St. Paul says that many are sick and have died because they received the Lord, not discerning that it was He - or knowing that it was He, but not caring that they received unworthily. In those cases, Jesus did not leave the host, He was still there and the people got sick and/or died.

***To me, arguing that the holy substance of the host is somehow locked into it is the same as arguing that the priest does have the power to summon God to transform it and cause it to remain transformed***

That is exactly what the Church teaches. Christ has given his priests, through Holy Orders, that power. Transubstantiation means that it is changed and becomes the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ, regardless of whether we believe or not. St. Paul’s words back this up.


83 posted on 07/16/2008 9:24:16 AM PDT by nanetteclaret ("I will sing praise to my God while I have my being." Psalm 104:33b)
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To: Captain Rhino; Tax-chick
You have offered good thoughts for discussion, and I think everybody around here honors honest discussion, even when there is disagreement. So for this I thank you, Cap'n!

"The Bible says that God is present whenever two or more are gathered in His name. So God is already present at the Mass simply because the faithful have gathered together to honor Him with worship."

Well, there are different degrees, or kinds, or modes, of presence. In the Mass, God is present by virtue of His omnipresence everywhere; by virtue of the proclamation of the Word (Scriptures); by virtue of the gathered believers; by virtue of His presence in each baptized person, whose body is a Temple of the Holy Spirit; and by virtue of Christ's Real Presence in the Eucharist.

An analogy might be helpful. Think of several different examples of a man's wife being present n the room with him:

In each case, the wife is present, but in the first example she is present in a way that makes no difference to her husband, and she is "more present" in each successive instance until the last, which may be the most intense experience of her presence.

In a similar way, God is present everywhere at all times; more present to us when we hear the Gospel proclaimed, or when we pray; most present when we are reverently united to Him in the Eucharist. We Catholics are convinced that the Eucharist is the most privileged form of presence that can be experienced on this earth.

Like marital lovemaking, it is not for everyone, at every time, in every place, but only for consecrated people (I use the word generically, to mean those "set aside" by Baptism); at consecrated times, and usually in consecrated places. It is a foretaste of heaven.

God cannot be "ordered" to transubstantiate the host and wine. No priest has that capacity. So, at most, the host and wine are transformed because God agrees to do so. The words "This is My Body" and "This is My Blood" cannot be more than a respectful, reverent invitation from the priest on behalf of the faithful for God to perform the tranformative act. The fact that the host and the wine are transformed is an entirely free and unconstrained act on the part of God for His own purposes. The fact that they are always transformed is a sign of God's lovingkindness to the community of believers.

Everything here is true enough --- you will never find the Church saying that God is in effect our dog, and comes when we whistle. God is always sovereign. Nevertheless, He has lovingly condescended to make His presence known in outward signs which are called Sacraments. We are convinced that the priest has been given (by God's graciousness) the power to make ("confect") the Eucharist which is His Real Presence in an unparalleled way.

This in no way takes away from the many other ways that God is present. It is the Source and Summit of our Christian life.

"God knows the intentions of each person's heart. It seems reasonable that, if a person receives a consecrated host with dishonest intent, God would know this instantly and cause the holy substance of the host to depart from it."

I can understand how you might suppose that, and even more how you might wish it--- not wanting to see Christ blasphemed by mockers. However, when He walked amongst us, Christ did not evade mocking and spitting, though it is ghastly to think of it. Moreover, Scripture indicates, not that the unworthy do not receive Christ because he "exits," but that they receive His Body and Blood in a way that sins against it, in a way that brings condemnation:

1 Corinthians 11:27
Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the Body and Blood of the Lord.

100 posted on 07/16/2008 11:46:49 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom...though it cost all you have, get understanding" - Prov. 4)
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