Fiancée of British royal abandons Catholicism to preserve succession

CNA ^ | May 2, 2008

[RobbyS]

The Government would have to do this. It would be a constitutional change and opposed by the Church of England because it would mean virtual
disestablishment. That is one reason why Tony Blair did not swim the Tiber while PM.

[baa39]

OK, wait a sec, I don’t want you to feel condemned, I don’t believe I said anywhere all protestants are going to hell, maybe you have had bad experiences and something in my post is triggering back to those. Sorry about that.

But just speaking about doctrine, I have the same Catechism in front of me that you do; I commend you for reading it, you’re going right to the source, it’s not always a simple thing to understand. You might want to supplement with something that gives more of an introduction and comparison approach, like a book from Catholic Answers or EWTN or some such, just a suggestion.

You’ve brought up so many different concepts, maybe that’s where we seem to be at odds. I am responding with assumptions based on a lifelong knowledge of Catholicism, and many years of training, so I see I’m leaving gaps. The thing is, if we go to a CoE service, we could hardly tell the difference, IN EXTERNALS, from a Catholic Mass.

However, there are many differences. A few months ago the Pope issued a statement about the very issue you mention, clarifying all Christian churches are not equal. There are lots of other differences about Confirmation, Holy Orders (related to Apostolic Succession, hence the validity of ordination, a priest is ontologically changed when he receives Holy Orders in the Catholic Church, etc), Penance (only Catholic/Orthodox priest can give absolution) but there is so much to all that, so let me go to the most important one:

Holy Eucharist, or Communion. It’s confusing because Catholics and many different protestant religions use the same word, but we do not mean the same thing...at all! The Body, Blood, Soul, Divinity of Christ, this is THE reason to become a Catholic. You cannot receive the Real Presence, the actual Body of Christ except from the hands of a priest who has Confected the Eucharist sacramentally in the Holy Mass according to one of the Rites (Roman, Maronite, Byzantine, etc) of the Church. CoE, Lutherans, whoever, are handing out a piece of bread. Transubstantiation: big, big difference, and very powerful for your life.

[baa39]

I see what you mean! We are so accustomed to thinking in the US of “separation of church and state”. I think it’s about time the Pope yanked back that “Defender of the Faith” designation! (Ha ha.)

[NYer]

I don’t know if you are coming at it from the Catholic side, but you do know that the Church of England and Roman Catholicism are not too far off from each other, don’t you?

While the belief systems may be similar, in converting to the Church of England, Autumn has ground her 3" stiletto heel into the dirt that holds the blood of the 105 Catholic Martyrs of Tyburn, hung from the gallows for refusing to accept the King as "the only Supreme Head on earth of the Church of England".

T.S.Eliot wrote about the execution of St Thomas a Becket -

"Wherever a saint has dwelt,
wherever a Martyr has given his blood for Christ,
there is holy ground,
and the sanctity shall not depart from it."

[ikka]

They are very close if not in full communion, as the Vatican itself has stated. See for example: http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=6834

[Polybius]

Disobeying a Protestant monarch when persecuting Catholics in an historically Catholic country is not treason. It’s loyalty to God and His Church.

Funny how the British Monarchs still retain the title of "Defender of the Faith" conferred by the Pope on Henry VIII before Henry turned homicidal.

[RobbyS]

More than a hundred years ago, the Church said that the Church of England had gone beyond schism and had broken the line of apostolic successions by in effect denoucing that doctrine. To put it another way, there was no much room theologically between Cranmer and Calvin so far as liturgy and the government of the Church was concerned. Neither man believed in the doctrine of apostolic succession. In other words, at some point we have bishops who did not intend to ordain bishops so they crafted imperfect forms, just as Cranmer’s eucharistic forms are imperfect.

[vladimir998]

Elizabeth II is still calling herself the “Duke of Normandy” too because of Guernsey and Jersey islands!

[magdalen]

“Why Richard, it profits a man nothing to lose his soul for the whole world... but for Wales?”

-Thomas More in “A Man For All Seasons”

Oh, that is such a good line! And Thomas More was a SAINT who gave the ultimate witness for the primacy of the Pope and the validity of marriage.

Canadians will not like this—but I have visited Canada and seen the skeleton remains of the Church in many places. For many ‘american catholics’ and this is true in my diocese as well, they see NO difference in the churches.

We had a protestant give a mission at my parish last month and he recieved communion and everything. So ecumenical. When you do not understand or know your faith very well or have fallen into the relativist ‘we are all the same’ bit, there there is no soul searching, nail biting decision to be made.

And then look at Tony Blair who supposedly entered the Catholic Church—any change in his political stances to conform to Church teachings? I do not think so.

When your faith means your life is on the line as it was with St. Thomas More, then one would not have to think very long over a decision whether or not to leave the Church for how can you leave Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament if you believe in that dogma and you love Him?

[Oztrich Boy]

A few members of the British parliament have been talking about introducing legislation to repeal it.

They would be socialists not conservatives.

This Declaration of Right (the act of the 1st of William and Mary, sess. 2, ch. 2) is the cornerstone of our constitution as reinforced, explained, improved, and in its fundamental principles for ever settled. It is called, "An Act for declaring the rights and liberties of the subject, and for settling the succession of the crown". You will observe that these rights and this succession are declared in one body and bound indissolubly together. - Edmund Burke Reflections on the Revolution in France 1790

Now let's discuss you Amending the US Bill of Roghts.

[Oztrich Boy]

Funny how the British Monarchs still retain the title of "Defender of the Faith" conferred by the Pope on Henry VIII before Henry turned homicidal.

The real funny is that the title was granted by a Renaissance Prince Giovanni di Lorenzo de' Medici, who cliamed to be the High Priest of Pagan Rome: Pontifex Maximus. But what ya gonna do? Tradition isn't always logical - we follow it because it works

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“The real funny is that the title was granted by a Renaissance Prince Giovanni di Lorenzo de’ Medici, who cliamed to be the High Priest of Pagan Rome: Pontifex Maximus. But what ya gonna do? Tradition isn’t always logical - we follow it because it works”

Pope Leo X never claimed to be the high priest of pagan Rome and Rome had ceased to be pagan in the 380s. The title Pontifex Maximus was handed to the papacy by a Christian Roman emperor who saw no need to hold on to a title meant for priests when he was not a priest.

It is so interesting to see the lengths anti-Catholics will go to make up history.

[Savage Beast]

Yes. No.

There is really no point in discussing anything with someone who can not or will not recognize evil when it is as obvious as torture committed in the name of Jesus Christ--and repudiate it. Nothing could be more obvious--and in the name of Jesus, there could hardly be a more profound blasphemy.

Apparently the horrors of the Middle Ages are not as far from 21st-century Christian hearts as I have thought.

[baa39]

I’m almost afraid to answer you, because I don’t want this to become an argument like “my religion is better than yours,” I don’t mean it that way. I meant only what I said, let me try to explain, and this is from the Catholic viewpoint, so I accept others are going to disagree, maybe I won’t do a good job, but let me try....

I’m not re-writing the dictionary. The verb “to convert” comes from the Latin meaning “to turn or transform. “ When we speak in theological terms of conversion, in means a turning toward God, a move in the direction of truth, not the more loose idea such as “I converted from a Democrat to a Republican” or “He converted from socialism to capitalism.” That’s a meaning of the word in secular terms that just is referring to changing ones mind or beliefs.

However, to CONVERT in the theological sense means to “turn to God” or “transform” at a spiritual level. Therefore if one turns AWAY from truth, that is NOT a conversion. To be baptized a Catholic and abandon the faith is not a “turn toward God” but a refutation of God, of truth, because the Catholic Church is a divine institution established by Christ, not a secular religion like the Church of England.

[baa39]

“When your faith means your life is on the line...” very well put, Magdalen. What people don’t often realize is that their lives are on the line, their eternal lives. May this deluded girl come to realize what a great treasure she has rejected and be reunited to the Faith, and bring her Prince Charming husband along with her. Much greater the riches they would store up in Heaven than from any position in the British Royal Family.

But I don’t understand something in your post, about “a protestant gave a mission at my parish”...do you mean a Catholic parish? This makes no sense to me (unless you have one of these misguided priests, which is not uncommon). Or maybe I misinterpret “mission”? Was this a lecture or presentation, separate from Mass, by a minister, for the purpose of ecumenical understanding or some sort of prayer service? A protestant cannot “preach” or “teach” in a Catholic church, you know? That is not ecumenism, but heresy. Ecumenism is to encourage understanding, cooperation, and building the faith in areas of common belief, to ultimately foster unity.

[heartwood]

He’s ninth or so in line for the throne? Hardly seems likely it ever would be an issue.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“There is really no point in discussing anything with someone who can not or will not recognize evil when it is as obvious as torture committed in the name of Jesus Christ—and repudiate it.”

Was Moses evil? Was the slaughter of the 23,000 by the command of God evil? There is no point to discussing historical issues when you are incapable of placing them in context.

“Nothing could be more obvious—and in the name of Jesus, there could hardly be a more profound blasphemy.”

And killing 23,000 men, women and children in the name of Yahweh was not blasphemy?

“Apparently the horrors of the Middle Ages are not as far from 21st-century Christian hearts as I have thought.”

But reason and intelligence is apparently far from the hearts of some so-called Christians when they lash out about what they don’t understand and can’t muster up an argument for? If you bring up an issue and make unsubstantiated claims, be prepared to defend them. This webforum works best when people THINK and post accordingly.

[dangus]

Lemme see, “defender of the faith” is officially broadened so that its scope includes ISLAM, but Catholics are still singled out by the 1701 Acts of Settlement?

England is just pleading for God’s retribution.

[dangus]

>> Lemme see, “defender of the faith” is officially broadened so that its scope includes ISLAM, but Catholics are still singled out by the 1701 Acts of Settlement? <<

Reading the act, it requires membership in the church of England, and does not single out just Catholics, as reported. But England (by which I should also have been careful to say I meant the crown, not the people) is still beyond all but the most irrational of hope.

[dangus]

I take it back: Catholics ARE still singled out

“And it was thereby further enacted That all and every Person and Persons that then were or afterwards should be reconciled to or shall hold Communion with the See or Church of Rome or should professe the Popish Religion or marry a Papist should be excluded and are by that Act made for ever”

It’s fine according to British law to marry a Muzzie, just not a Catholic.