Did the "Reformation" reform?

03-23-2008 | count-yor-change

[count-your-change]

What most needed reforming was left in place, the clergy and the laity as two distinct classes.

[count-your-change]

Martin Luther certainly had reason for his list of complaints but the division of the Christian congregation into a clergy class and a laity class was one of the most glaring of departures from the Scriptures and his efforts at reform left it solidly fixed. Jesus had Himself admonished His disciples at Matt. 23:8-12 that they were not to take titles for themselves and seek attention by their dress. And it seems that as long as the apostles were alive they could keep such practices out of the various congregations but as Paul said to the elders from Ephesus at Acts 20:20-31 after he went away men would arise "from your own group" to lead off disciples after themselves. Secular history records that those were who were supposed to be servants in the Christian church instead became a powerful elite with special garb and titles to set them above a "laity". As a Jesuit writer said in his article, "Beyond the Clergy-Laity Divide", "..there really was no clergy-laity divide during the patristic period". (1) Paul C. Phan, a professor at The Catholic University in Washington, D.C. , made a similar comment in an essay titled, "The Laity in the Early Church-Building Blocks for a Theology of the Laity" (2) Indeed, The Catholic Encyclopedia states that before the time of Constantine the priestly dress didn't differ from secular dress and that everyday dress was worn at the offices of the church. (3) The division of worshipers into a professional, paid, titled clergy and a laity class continued to be the form after the "Reformation". This division was unscriptural then and it is now. (1) http://www.sedos.org/english/kunnumpuram.html (2) http://www.members.cox.net/vientritdao/bao/cho4.html (3) http://www.newaadvent.org/cathen/15388a.html

[the invisib1e hand]

ib4z, on about a 40% chance.

[Tax-chick]

IBTZ? Paragraphs are one’s friends ...

[trisham]

Very interesting.

[2ndDivisionVet]

So the Mormons are actually more “early Christian” than either Catholics or Protestants?

[Truth Defender]

So far, all responses have ignored what is said, and have ignored or made snide remarks without any reference to what you posted.

Your post has a lot of merit to it. Of course, it could be expanded into many, many pages that would just touch on the problems of a clergy-laity mentality. The Apostles were against dividing Christians by elevating one man against another. Then, naturally, philosophy played a large part in trying to downplay the words and teachings of the Apostles in this respect.

[count-your-change]

True. Since anyone able to read out there has as much access to research material as I do I am somewhat reluctant to do for others what is really their personal responsibility-to do as Paul said at 1 Thes. 5:21.

[count-your-change]

I know but my secretary has been off work for the past 37 years.

[count-your-change]

Not familiar enough with Morman practice and doctrine to answer. If you are, tell me about it. thanks.

[Truth Defender]

True. Since anyone able to read out there has as much access to research material as I do I am somewhat reluctant to do for others what is really their personal responsibility-to do as Paul said at 1 Thes. 5:21.

You are absolutely right. However, people are generally too lazy to investigate WHY they believe WHAT they believe. They would rather just make unjustified remarks that seek to confound any issue raised. There is a bad side to using the internet to find information for the greatest amount of it is based upon bias and philosophy - the ideas of men versus what is taught in Scritures.

I Thess. 5:21 speaks of "times and seasons," not of doing research. However, in Act 17:11 we do find a verse that is pertinent, as I'm somewhat sure you would agree. It is always more noble, to use Paul's word, to do the research yourself to see if what is said is true - which does, in a way, make it incumbant upon individuals to do their own investigating.

[Seven_0]

The reason such a system flourishes is because it is so well suited to the people it displaces. The laity are glad to give up their responsibility to anyone who will take it.

[trisham]

No kidding? Ah, well.

[count-your-change]

The investigation was about his articles or comments on the relationship between Christianity and other religions. The comments I pointed out were not in question and never have been. He was not offering opinion on the particular point I cited. Not everything he said there was pertinent to my discussion nor are his opinions on other subjects.

[GOPJ]

Martin Luther and his effect on Hitler - might want to read this: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1986216/posts

[count-your-change]

Are we both reading the same verse? As i read 1 Thessalonians 5:21 it speaks of “test everything hold fast to what is good”.
The internet is a ocean and there’s poisonous things in it as well healthful. One just has to very careful about what they swallow. True of my local library also which has a patina of authority for its contents as the internet does not.
Yes, the Beroeans were noble minded for doing the examination the Thessalonians were told to do.

[count-your-change]

I didn’t ignore his other comments nor did rely on him alone. If he is wrong about the point I cited him for does it make any difference about anything else he has said? No? If he is right does it make any difference? No.
But he is not object of concern here is he?

[count-your-change]

That might be something for another day. thanks

[Uri’el-2012]

They missed all the Pagan feasts like Easter and Christmas and Sunday