Indeed.
Posted on 03/11/2008 8:05:54 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Rumors that the Vatican is set to rehabilitate Martin Luther, the 16th-century leader of the Protestant Reformation, are groundless, said the Vatican spokesman, Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi.
News reports in early March alleged that Pope Benedict XVI was dedicating a planned September symposium with former doctoral students to re-evaluating Luther, who was excommunicated and condemned for heresy.
The story "does not have any foundation, insofar as no rehabilitation of Luther is foreseen," Father Lombardi told the Italian news agency ANSA March 8.
Vatican officials said the topic of the pope's annual summer gathering of former students this year has not yet been decided. Of the two topics under consideration, Luther is not one of them, one official told Catholic News Service.
Excesses in 16th-century preaching about indulgences and in Catholic penitential practices sparked Luther, a theologian and Augustinian monk, to seek reform in the church. His concerns started a movement that led to the Protestant Reformation.
The church excommunicated Luther for preaching a philosophy doubting the pope's infallibility.
Luther emphasized the absolute primacy of God's action in freeing people from sin and making them just, and the total sufficiency of Christ's death to expiate the sins of all.
In 1983, Pope John Paul II noted that studies by Lutheran and Catholic researchers "have led to a more complete and more differentiated image of the personality of Luther" as well as the complicated historical factors surrounding his life.
Nearly 500 years after the Reformation began in 1517, Lutherans and Catholics resolved one of the issues that began the Reformation era when they signed the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification in 1999.
The declaration said the churches' consensus on basic truths means that the doctrine of justification is not a church-dividing issue for Catholics and Lutherans even though differences between them remain in language, theological elaboration and emphasis surrounding those basic truths.
Well, darn!
This effort is already complete:
Nearly 500 years after the Reformation began in 1517, Lutherans and Catholics resolved one of the issues that began the Reformation era when they signed the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification in 1999.
But, of course, you guys don't like that one, because the Vatican didn't run up the white flag and cave.
They aren't going to run up the white flag and cave to the Muzzies, either.
The Pope planting a big sloppy one on the Koran seems to be pretty darn close.
Is that a fact? Lutherans. I see.
Rome resolved one of the issues with Lutherans.
One of the Lutheran groups that was a signatory to that document was the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. That's right. Our own ECLA. I'm sure you know about them Campion. Female priests. Pro-abortion. Typical failing liberal mainline church.
I trust you take great pride in the fact that Rome and ELCA are one step closer.
Oh wheee.
Would I prefer to have some sort of commonality with the WELS and the LCMS? Sure I would.
The first thing we can "dialogue" about with them is why we don't really agree with them that the Pope is antichrist, as both of them continue to formally, publicly, profess in their confessions of faith.
There probably won't be time, or occasion, or reason to discuss much else.
Indeed.
But then we never expected any slam dunk on such things . . .
Though one of us believes God is moving in startling ways on such fronts.
I pray it is so.
How DARE someone try to respect a Catholic!
The declaration said the churches' consensus on basic truths means that the doctrine of justification is not a church-dividing issue for Catholics and Lutherans even though differences between them remain in language, theological elaboration and emphasis surrounding those basic truths.
The most under-reported story of the past century.
The article which made the original claim, also breathlessly informed us that it was all being done because the Pope wanted to soften his image after the "Protestant Churches aren't really true Churches" controversy.
Big red flag. That told me the whole article was complete garbage.
Chalk up another one for "The Times" of London; Rupert Murdoch's publication of record for matters Catholic.
Well, since we're going to stick to the issues,
-why doesn't the Catholic church recant TrentOnly then can anyone have an honest dialog. Oh sure, you can sign a document with the ELCA and claim that progress has been made. But conservative Reformed and Lutherans will never, ever go along with such unless Rome were to take such steps.
-stop using condescending terms like "seperated brethren" when speaking of non-Catholic Christians
-and, formally acknowledge that the full benefits of Christ are sealed in all who claim the biblical title Christian
How does any human being 'rehabilitate' a dead person?
(2) What do you want us to call you? "Heretics and schismatics"?
(3) formally acknowledge that the full benefits of Christ are sealed in all who claim the biblical title Christian What does that mean? Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are "sealed" in the "full benefits of Christ"?
In any case, for the most part the traditional Protestant groups won't talk to us. We can hardly be blamed for failing to talk to those who want talk to us. Dialogue predicated on the unilateral prior surrender of one of the parties is not dialogue.
Really? I'd always thought that in Decet Romanum Pontificem Leo X excommunicated Luther for failing to retract the 41 theses listed in Exsurge Domine.
Really? I'd always thought that in Decet Romanum Pontificem Leo X excommunicated Luther for failing to retract the 41 theses listed in Exsurge Domine.
Maybe they should have excommunicated him for not sharing his time machine; how else could he have known about and disagreed with a doctrine (papal infallibility) that wouldn't be recognized for over 300 more years.
LOL!!! It seems that the journalists at Catholic News Service get some bad intell, too.
Anyway, whether or not Luther had one, I'm glad that the Vatican has a time machine now.
I swear, we are the worst secret keepers in the world!
Wow! There’s some fodder for the conspiracy nuts.
Looking at the mess the protestantism is, it is unlikely that the instigator of that mess would be “rehabilitated” as if his errors don’t continue to spread.
Keep a Good Lent!
I can't help noting the irony of sending this ping after sundown March 11, therefore the start of the liturgical day of March 12, which for ECLA Lutherans (but not LCMS) and Roman Catholics is the Commemoration of Gregory the Great, Bishop of Rome.
And, yes, "separated brethren" is a great improvement from the "schismatics and heretics."
bttt for Lent
you wrote:
“-why doesn’t the Catholic church recant Trent”
Because there’s no need. Trent was right.
“-stop using condescending terms like “seperated brethren” when speaking of non-Catholic Christians”
Because it’s not condescending, but those who know it applies to them apparently feel or act guilty and defensive when it is applied to them.
“-and, formally acknowledge that the full benefits of Christ are sealed in all who claim the biblical title Christian”
How can that be done when some of those same people deny part of the Bible, the Church Christ sent, the sacraments He bled for, or the cleansing He bled out for?
“Only then can anyone have an honest dialog.”
It is almost impossible to have an honest dialog with Protestants since they deny reality, history, a part of the Bible, the Church Christ founded, etc.
“Oh sure, you can sign a document with the ELCA and claim that progress has been made.”
The document in question wasn’t signed with ELCA. Wasn’t the WLF?
“But conservative Reformed and Lutherans will never, ever go along with such unless Rome were to take such steps.”
Then they will reap what they sow. The brighter, more humble, more devout Lutherans, however, will come home. Many already have.
You wrote:
“How does any human being ‘rehabilitate’ a dead person?”
This is the Church, and not just a human being. The rehabilitation - and there won’t be one for Luther - would just be an acknowledgement that Luther was right in what he said or did. The Church has long recognized already that Luther was right on some issues.
The US or US states rehabilitate people long after death by admitting they didn’t commit the crimes which they were convicted of, having honors and awards officially restored to them, etc.
Doc E's tagline sums up quite well the arrogance of Rome:
"I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose
Then, contrary to the protests of many Catholics on this board, dialog is not the goal, but the destruction of all vestiges of true Christianity.
Thanks for validating Rome’s goal.
and why should Rome do that? The Lutherans left the church and not the other way around.
You wrote:
“Then, contrary to the protests of many Catholics on this board, dialog is not the goal, but the destruction of all vestiges of true Christianity.”
Incorrect.
1) I know of no one who believes dialog is, in itself, a goal of anything other than dialog. The goal is reconciliation and reunion.
2) Catholicism is true Christianity.
“Thanks for validating Rome’s goal.”
Thanks for validating the notion that Protestants are willing to distort truth rather than deal with it.
Ah, well, there are many who already believe that Luther was right.
Don't whine we don't talk to those confessions.
Repudiating Trent means repudiating the Mass. At that point, St. Peter's can become a mosque and the Sistine chapel can become an art museum, because the Catholic Church will cease to exist.
Taking the "Pope is antichrist" garbage out of the Lutheran doctrinal statements is a matter of removing offensive and unChristian language.
The two are not remotely comparable. Talk about the "arrogance of Rome"?!? The price of removing an offensive remark is for the prospective partner in "dialogue" to cease to exist?
"I'll stop insulting you in public, if you'll agree to commit suicide." -- That's effectively what you're saying.
And you talk about OUR arrogance, and us demanding YOUR submission????
Sounds like it came from the playbook of the SSPX! I had you pegged as a RadTrad until I saw your ID.
Then continue to take pride in your joint declarations with pro-abortion/female ordaining churches.
We will remain the true conservative church while Rome makes deals with the devil.
SSPX?
LOL
Did he or didn’t he? Facts are facts.
And a "true conservative church" doesn't bless birth control. Even your Presbyterian ancestors knew that.
-why doesn't the Catholic church recant Trent
Er... why should it? Is that the ransom for Lutherans to return to the fold?
-stop using condescending terms like "seperated brethren" when speaking of non-Catholic Christians
You prefer "hellbound heretics" instead? (just kidding, JUST KIDDING!)
-and, formally acknowledge that the full benefits of Christ are sealed in all who claim the biblical title Christian
Including the Clintons?
Only then can anyone have an honest dialog. Oh sure, you can sign a document with the ELCA and claim that progress has been made. But conservative Reformed and Lutherans will never, ever go along with such unless Rome were to take such steps.
Will they hold their breath, too? Because, other religions are currently batting .000 in forcing the Church to do anything against her creed.
Unfortunately, this is a lot like a teenager calling her parents from the bus station and offering to come home only if they agree to live by her rules instead.
I’m so glad you recognized my humor for what it was. Yes, he did. The question is ‘why?’. He did it as a show of respect for a gift that the giver held in high esteem. JP2 was a highly respectful and diplomatic man. I am sure he had a lot of thinking to do when he found out what the gift was to be. (FWIW, he was a far better Christian than I could have been in those circumstances!)
One of the first things to do when attempting to establish a discussion with one’s traditional enemies/opponents is NOT to piss them off needlessly. What is the Pope (B16) trying to do now (and what JP2 laid the foundation for)? He wants the persecution of Christians to stop.
Christ would have been kind to all sinners initially, but would hold to His positions. The same with B16 - let’s be civilized, but the point is we have to stop the persecution of Christians (not just Catholics, BTW). Religious liberty os a 2way street.
**Christ would have been kind to all sinners initially**
He wouldn’t wallow in their sin with them though, would he?
Good plan.
In researching the Joint Declaration of Faith (a friend of mine was in an ELCA seminary and had a bit distorted view of it), I noted that the then Cardinal Ratzinger was very upset about the appendix that was added on to the document. He had worked with the committee very hard to hammer out a good document, and the appendix basically nullified all of it. The JDF was still signed as a publicity stunt, but not much more.
Now, since he is the Pope, it doesn't surprise me that he wants to revisit this issue. But he has a problem. Many of the local Vatican bureaucrats do not want anything to do with it. It will be interesting to see what happens.
“Muslim-Catholic pact to foster respect” Yes, by all means let's UNDERSTAND and CAVE IN to terrorism. Meanwhile Islam begets another victory. Hitler wanted to be friends with the Russians too - some NEVER LEARN - when you are dealing with hideous people, NEVER, EVER, trust them. If we had listened to this guy, HE'D be speaking GERMAN. I'm GLAD the U.S. helped END the reign of Hitler!
I also better understand this:
Pope Issues Strong Appeal for Peace in Iraq
Sunday, March 16, 2008
VATICAN CITY — Pope Benedict XVI denounced the 5-year-old Iraqi war and issued one of his strongest appeals for peace in the country Sunday, days after the kidnapped Chaldean Catholic archbishop of Mosul was found dead.
“Enough with the slaughters. Enough with the violence. Enough with the hatred in Iraq!”
(Is he stumping for the Demoncrats?)
...
“At the same time, I make an appeal to the Iraqi people, who for the past five years have borne the consequences of a war that provoked the breakup of their civil and social life,” Benedict said.
He urged them to raise their heads and reconstruct their life through “reconciliation, forgiveness, justice and coexistence among tribal, ethnic and religious groups.”
The Vatican strongly opposed the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. In its aftermath, Benedict has frequently criticized attacks against Iraqi Christians by Islamic extremists. Last year, he urged U.S. President George W. Bush to keep the safety of Iraqi Christians in mind.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,338276,00.html
Yes, yes by all means let's resurrect Saddam Insane so they can resume their PEACEFUL terrorist lifestyle. Showing the knee, you can get executed for if you are a woman during a soccer match break. Yes, let's bring Saddam Insanes sons back to - especially the one that liked to rape girls and feed them and others to lions for amusement. Yes, let's bring back that culture and social outings of fear.
This guy was NO CLUE on just how we go out of our way to NOT attack enemies that want to slice off our heads. He happily condemns the U.S. and is slightly SILENT on those lopping heads off for criticism and even wants to be FRIENDS with the very people that are EVIL - ISLAM.
This guy is a disgrace spouting off HUMANISM and trying to pass it off as Christianity. Has he NO CLUE that in the OLD Testament God used WARS to get rid of evil and still does today? This humanistic utopia that is hypocritical at best will not and has NEVER worked in a world with evil. Evil doesn't abide by or respect those that are against good - that's Bible 101.
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