Posted on 09/20/2007 6:58:34 AM PDT by maryz
I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't witnessed it for myself! I went to the meeting 9/18/2007 about the implementation of the motu proprio in the Diocese of St. Augustine with guest speaker, Fr. Thomas Willis Diocesan Director of Liturgy. If I had to estimate, I'd say about 70 people were there. Among which were two deacons and three priests. I knew that there may be some controversial topics brought to the floor but I never expected this:
First, the man who was MC for the event introduced the topic and ground-rules of the discussion. He stated that there wouldn't be discussion of what constitutes a "stable group" nor discussion about what "ideoneus" means. The MC stated that the people gathered are a "minority devoted to the traditional mass which no longer wishes to be treated like lepers" and mentioned that the traditional liturgy had been "banished to diocesan exile". Then he stated that Fr. Willis was representing Bishop Galeone.
When Fr. Willis came to the podium he stated that he had prepared a talk on the subject of the motu proprio but will not give it since the MC's introduction made his talk seem contradictory. With much protest from the audience, Fr. Willis conceded to give his speech but said that he "does not give any permission for his talk to be recorded". Mind you, he was invited to speak, it was not his meeting per se not to mention that this meeting was advertised on the local radio and bulletin board outside the Cody Enrichment Center. He also asked if anybody was from the secular news media. All present that I could tell stopped recording, including the local Catholic radio station- EWTN affiliate WQOP which was prepared to record the meeting.
He said that he has been subject of much personal ridicule over the internet being called "the terrorist", and mentioning that it had been mentioned that tonight was the night challenge him. The people in the audience convinced him to go ahead and give his talk anyhow.
Next, Fr. Willis gave "a history of the Roman Mass" saying that in the early 20th Century some monastic orders in Europe were given dispensation from the Vatican to use "experimental liturgies", these were supposed to be kept under wraps (I've never heard of that before) but that laypeople from the village came to hear the Mass in their native tongue and the trend caught on. Thus was the groundwork for the liturgical form. He also mentioned that "useless repetition" was eliminated with the New Mass. He said that the Novus Ordo is more of a restoration of the Mass of the early Christians. But we've heard that so many times before. Fr. Willis mentioned that before motu proprio Ecclesia Dei Adflicta was issued, that then diocesan Bishop John Snyder met with the prefect of the Congregation of Divine Worship who presented to the bishop a stack of letters sent to Rome stating that the bishop hadn't acceded to the requests of the faithful for the traditional Mass. Fr. Willis said that Bp. Snyder pointed out that most of the requests weren't from locations postmarked in this diocese. He also mentioned that most of the requests for the Latin Mass in this diocese have been few and far between.
Fr. Willis said that he did not send the Memorandum to the clergy of the Diocese of St. Augustine. He said that the bishop penned most of the memorandum himself, and it was sent out under his name but he did not issue it himself.
Some of the questions from the meeting from the audience were about how a priest is to be trained. He said that the bishop told him personally that he doesn't want to make it impossible for a priest to prove himself "qualified". He said a priest would have to show that he can use the rites appropriately before being able to use the Mass just as he does before he is ordained. When asked what the diocese is going to do to help priests who want to say the extraordinary form, Fr. Willis said there's a website to go to for that information but he isn't sure of its origin. Someone mentioned that the website may be http://www.sanctamissa.org/. He told one of the audience members that if a priest desired to go to the FSSP for training that he may do so -- it's up to the priest.
Some people asked why the diocese seems so negative about the situation and why not take a more proactive response to the motu proprio. I would say they were the questions that we'd all expect to be asked along with some frustration about the memorandum that was sent out.
Fr. Daniel Cody was in attendance and asked what sort of help the diocese would be able to offer to a pastor who needs help with the Latin Mass. That was certainly encouraging to hear from a priest, whereas another priest was present who said that he dislikes the Latin Mass and refuses to say it.
Fr. Willis said that if anybody wants to know why the pope called the pre-Conciliar rites the "extraordinary form", and the post-Conciliar rites the "ordinary form" that they should ask the pope themselves if they get the chance.
One person, mentioning himself to be a convert to the faith and who said he's in his 20's, stated that he believes that most younger people are "afraid of the Church officials"- afraid of what young people will be treated like if they make their voices known about their love for the traditional Mass. Fr. Willis followed this comment up by making the most shocking comment that he made all night. It was a study from Creighton University saying that people who have ADD can focus better at the Latin Mass with all the silence than at the Novus Ordo where there is more "active participation". The whole room took that comment very personally and became very upset. I never heard him recant or say to the effect "I'm not speaking of you as individuals". He just said it and let it go (to the best of my recollection) while the whole room was in a flurry. I could not believe that a diocesan official would be so bold. Many people, including myself, took that comment to heart and it is quite saddening. However, I suppose now I know why he didn't want to be recorded.
In all, it was a social disaster. It was obvious to me that the people who asked the more poignant questions were looking for straight-forward answers, and perhaps to have their voice heard after decades of silence.
Our Lady of Sorrows- Pray for us!
OK......let's buy that steaming pile, just for argument's sake.
So what?
Surely the issue of the relative merits of the Novus Ordo vs the Tridentine Rite is entirely beside the point in a meeting such as this. The point is that each rite has its devotees and given the publication of the motu proprio, the question should be how to facilitate its implementation. The Tridentine Rite is not being imposed on those who dislike it and given the wide availability of the Novus Ordo, there are ample alternatives for those who think the old rite is just so much theatrics.
Why does the discussion always come around to the supposed inferiority of the Tridentine Rite? The motu proprio has been published so that issue no longer arises as far as the need for official approval goes. It's a done deal.
Either help those who want to use the old rite or quit blocking the highway.
>> It was a study from Creighton University saying that people who have ADD can focus better at the Latin Mass with all the silence than at the Novus Ordo where there is more “active participation”. <<
As one with (unmedicated) ADD, I’ll take that as a recommendation. :^D. My follow-up question is this: “Aren’t we canaries in the coal mine?” If people with ADD can concentrate BETTER in a Latin Mass, what does that say about everyone else?
I'm sure you're familiar with the old saying, "Any stick . . . to beat a dog!" ;-)
Sounds like this could open a whole new area for medical reasearch! For example, do people with high blood pressure benefit more from the TLM or the NO? Are the more virulent excesses of the NO (like clown Masses) likely to trigger epileptic seizures in the susceptible?
I do have a feeling that priest is likely to regret his words; they're not likely to stay secret!
>> Are the more virulent excesses of the NO (like clown Masses) likely to trigger epileptic seizures in the susceptible? <<
Personally? Yes.
(Our newly wreckovated daily Mass chapel gives me panic attacks -- does that count?)
Not really. I’m sure the new director of the USCCB domestic policy department thinks I should’ve been aborted.
I’ve been pretty busy so I couldn’t post earlier. I read a blog and can’t remember which one. It may have been Rorate Caeli. In any case, a commenter said that Pope Benedict XVI has played this very well. The quasi-schismatic AmChurch Bishops can no longer hide in the haystack. Summorum Pontificum is now the litmus test. If you’ve noticed, some Bishops have reacted violently but none have simply sat on the fence. They are either up or down; with it or against it. This is just what the Holy Father wants to know. The Reform will begin...give it time.
F
I was at the meeting, and what I saw was a sweating bureaucrat suddenly being put front and center. The memo was put out over his signature, but he immediately told us he hadn’t written it, nor had the bishop (except for a few sentences) because the bishop was on vacation at the time. So who did write it? And why did they sign it if they didn’t write it? Bunch of cowardly weasles that they are!
Fr. Willis’ presentation was completely irrelevant, in that (a) nobody was there to here about the “superiority” of the Novus Ordo and (b) it was the usual Vatican II drivel that was virtually the Protestant 3rd-century-apostasy line, where everything done after that time was not authentically Christian, until Vatican II (inspired by Luther, of course) came along and brought the Church out of 1700 years of darkness.
The thing that was disturbing was that several of those attending were laypeople who had come because they thought this was an opportunity to “protest” the old use. They were mostly EEMs and people of that nature. The fact that they don’t have to attend it if they don’t want to, and that, while they are elderly, the NO will probably keep on chugging long enough for them to finish out their EEM careers, did not seem to matter to them. They particularly hate Latin, and they will do anything to prevent it.
The other disturbing thing was that the bishop keeps out of reach. He issued these guidelines, they affect his diocese, and suddenly he’s unreachable, he won’t reveal his standards for permitting priests to say the Latin mass, he’s not going to tell them how to qualify or get training, and he also plans to keep the FSSP and other institutes out of the diocese by applying the child protection policy to them on a case by case basis, which he hopes will create a delay sufficient to discourage interest among the priests! If he’s opposed to to the provisions of the MP, he should have the courage to say that to us personally, and also to tell it to the Pope. But instead, he’s taking this weird approach of staying out of sight and putting hapless bureaucrats like Fr. Willis out in the line of fire.
I don’t think anybody did record it. Fr. Willis flew into a real frenzy - red and shaking - at the poor guy from Queen of Peace radio (local EWTN provider) who was innocently sitting there to record it for broacasting later. It had already been announced on the radio that it would be broadcast, but Fr. Willis was EXTREMELY nervous and very angry, and I don’t think anybody dared to record it.
Fr. Willis sounds like a nervous type -- maybe a course of soothing TLMs would help! ;-)
Fr. Willis is a big, heavy, intimidating type of guy, although once I realized he was just a bureaucrat sent out to front for his boss, I felt a little more sympathetic to him. But I doubt that anybody dared to record it, because of course, in addition to everything else, he made legal threats, and here in Florida, it’s not legal to record even a public meeting without the permission of the speaker.
He is just chock full of all the old Vatican II anti-Tridentine cliches. His talk was like opening an old joke book and finding all the chestnuts of forever lined up in it.
Cdl. O'Malley comes close -- "doesn't apply to North America"! And really nothing further. It doesn't even look like he wrote the archdiocese "statement" -- he was on vacation when it appeared, and the only reference to him is quoted from newspaper stories. A few negative pieces in the Pilot (including a reprint of the infamous Fr. Daly column), but nothing to tie him to it.
I do wonder if there was any negative (or other) response from him about the 2 9/14 Masses in Boston. I hope neither the young priest (St. Columbkille's) or the Parish Administrator who allowed it at Holy Trinity felt any repercussions. Anyone know?
Too bad -- isn't that a little odd? I know there was a case in MA a few years ago where the judge put a gag order on someone who had recorded a parents' meeting on a sex education program and forbade dissemination. But recording was legal (though from what I heard of the content, if the speakers had known it was being recorded, they would have balked then).
Anyway, the ADD comment was so outrageous, it should make it all around the blogosphere fairly quickly -- it's already off to a good start!
Bp Snyder (predecessor of current bishop) was being disingenuous. Most of the letters probably came from Gainesville, which is in the center of the diocese, about 1 1/2 - 2 hours from Jacksonville, where the only Latin Mass is offered (at 8:00 am!).
People in Gainesville have been trying for decades to get an indult mass out there, and they were probably the ones who wrote, after being refused by Snyder. However, people who attend and are members of the Gainesville parishes can actually live in Ocala or any number of nearby places that are on the border of the Orlando diocese. These places do have a different postmark, which may technically be outside the diocese, but that doesn't mean that the people lived outside the diocese or were not members of a diocese of St. Augustine parish.
Of course, Bp Galeone is known to have simply tossed out a petition from Gainesville, bearing 250 names, that was sent to him.
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