Posted on 09/20/2007 6:58:34 AM PDT by maryz
I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't witnessed it for myself! I went to the meeting 9/18/2007 about the implementation of the motu proprio in the Diocese of St. Augustine with guest speaker, Fr. Thomas Willis Diocesan Director of Liturgy. If I had to estimate, I'd say about 70 people were there. Among which were two deacons and three priests. I knew that there may be some controversial topics brought to the floor but I never expected this:
First, the man who was MC for the event introduced the topic and ground-rules of the discussion. He stated that there wouldn't be discussion of what constitutes a "stable group" nor discussion about what "ideoneus" means. The MC stated that the people gathered are a "minority devoted to the traditional mass which no longer wishes to be treated like lepers" and mentioned that the traditional liturgy had been "banished to diocesan exile". Then he stated that Fr. Willis was representing Bishop Galeone.
When Fr. Willis came to the podium he stated that he had prepared a talk on the subject of the motu proprio but will not give it since the MC's introduction made his talk seem contradictory. With much protest from the audience, Fr. Willis conceded to give his speech but said that he "does not give any permission for his talk to be recorded". Mind you, he was invited to speak, it was not his meeting per se not to mention that this meeting was advertised on the local radio and bulletin board outside the Cody Enrichment Center. He also asked if anybody was from the secular news media. All present that I could tell stopped recording, including the local Catholic radio station- EWTN affiliate WQOP which was prepared to record the meeting.
He said that he has been subject of much personal ridicule over the internet being called "the terrorist", and mentioning that it had been mentioned that tonight was the night challenge him. The people in the audience convinced him to go ahead and give his talk anyhow.
Next, Fr. Willis gave "a history of the Roman Mass" saying that in the early 20th Century some monastic orders in Europe were given dispensation from the Vatican to use "experimental liturgies", these were supposed to be kept under wraps (I've never heard of that before) but that laypeople from the village came to hear the Mass in their native tongue and the trend caught on. Thus was the groundwork for the liturgical form. He also mentioned that "useless repetition" was eliminated with the New Mass. He said that the Novus Ordo is more of a restoration of the Mass of the early Christians. But we've heard that so many times before. Fr. Willis mentioned that before motu proprio Ecclesia Dei Adflicta was issued, that then diocesan Bishop John Snyder met with the prefect of the Congregation of Divine Worship who presented to the bishop a stack of letters sent to Rome stating that the bishop hadn't acceded to the requests of the faithful for the traditional Mass. Fr. Willis said that Bp. Snyder pointed out that most of the requests weren't from locations postmarked in this diocese. He also mentioned that most of the requests for the Latin Mass in this diocese have been few and far between.
Fr. Willis said that he did not send the Memorandum to the clergy of the Diocese of St. Augustine. He said that the bishop penned most of the memorandum himself, and it was sent out under his name but he did not issue it himself.
Some of the questions from the meeting from the audience were about how a priest is to be trained. He said that the bishop told him personally that he doesn't want to make it impossible for a priest to prove himself "qualified". He said a priest would have to show that he can use the rites appropriately before being able to use the Mass just as he does before he is ordained. When asked what the diocese is going to do to help priests who want to say the extraordinary form, Fr. Willis said there's a website to go to for that information but he isn't sure of its origin. Someone mentioned that the website may be http://www.sanctamissa.org/. He told one of the audience members that if a priest desired to go to the FSSP for training that he may do so -- it's up to the priest.
Some people asked why the diocese seems so negative about the situation and why not take a more proactive response to the motu proprio. I would say they were the questions that we'd all expect to be asked along with some frustration about the memorandum that was sent out.
Fr. Daniel Cody was in attendance and asked what sort of help the diocese would be able to offer to a pastor who needs help with the Latin Mass. That was certainly encouraging to hear from a priest, whereas another priest was present who said that he dislikes the Latin Mass and refuses to say it.
Fr. Willis said that if anybody wants to know why the pope called the pre-Conciliar rites the "extraordinary form", and the post-Conciliar rites the "ordinary form" that they should ask the pope themselves if they get the chance.
One person, mentioning himself to be a convert to the faith and who said he's in his 20's, stated that he believes that most younger people are "afraid of the Church officials"- afraid of what young people will be treated like if they make their voices known about their love for the traditional Mass. Fr. Willis followed this comment up by making the most shocking comment that he made all night. It was a study from Creighton University saying that people who have ADD can focus better at the Latin Mass with all the silence than at the Novus Ordo where there is more "active participation". The whole room took that comment very personally and became very upset. I never heard him recant or say to the effect "I'm not speaking of you as individuals". He just said it and let it go (to the best of my recollection) while the whole room was in a flurry. I could not believe that a diocesan official would be so bold. Many people, including myself, took that comment to heart and it is quite saddening. However, I suppose now I know why he didn't want to be recorded.
In all, it was a social disaster. It was obvious to me that the people who asked the more poignant questions were looking for straight-forward answers, and perhaps to have their voice heard after decades of silence.
Our Lady of Sorrows- Pray for us!
OK......let's buy that steaming pile, just for argument's sake.
So what?
Surely the issue of the relative merits of the Novus Ordo vs the Tridentine Rite is entirely beside the point in a meeting such as this. The point is that each rite has its devotees and given the publication of the motu proprio, the question should be how to facilitate its implementation. The Tridentine Rite is not being imposed on those who dislike it and given the wide availability of the Novus Ordo, there are ample alternatives for those who think the old rite is just so much theatrics.
Why does the discussion always come around to the supposed inferiority of the Tridentine Rite? The motu proprio has been published so that issue no longer arises as far as the need for official approval goes. It's a done deal.
Either help those who want to use the old rite or quit blocking the highway.
>> It was a study from Creighton University saying that people who have ADD can focus better at the Latin Mass with all the silence than at the Novus Ordo where there is more “active participation”. <<
As one with (unmedicated) ADD, I’ll take that as a recommendation. :^D. My follow-up question is this: “Aren’t we canaries in the coal mine?” If people with ADD can concentrate BETTER in a Latin Mass, what does that say about everyone else?
I'm sure you're familiar with the old saying, "Any stick . . . to beat a dog!" ;-)
Sounds like this could open a whole new area for medical reasearch! For example, do people with high blood pressure benefit more from the TLM or the NO? Are the more virulent excesses of the NO (like clown Masses) likely to trigger epileptic seizures in the susceptible?
I do have a feeling that priest is likely to regret his words; they're not likely to stay secret!
>> Are the more virulent excesses of the NO (like clown Masses) likely to trigger epileptic seizures in the susceptible? <<
Personally? Yes.
(Our newly wreckovated daily Mass chapel gives me panic attacks -- does that count?)
Not really. I’m sure the new director of the USCCB domestic policy department thinks I should’ve been aborted.
I’ve been pretty busy so I couldn’t post earlier. I read a blog and can’t remember which one. It may have been Rorate Caeli. In any case, a commenter said that Pope Benedict XVI has played this very well. The quasi-schismatic AmChurch Bishops can no longer hide in the haystack. Summorum Pontificum is now the litmus test. If you’ve noticed, some Bishops have reacted violently but none have simply sat on the fence. They are either up or down; with it or against it. This is just what the Holy Father wants to know. The Reform will begin...give it time.
F
I was at the meeting, and what I saw was a sweating bureaucrat suddenly being put front and center. The memo was put out over his signature, but he immediately told us he hadn’t written it, nor had the bishop (except for a few sentences) because the bishop was on vacation at the time. So who did write it? And why did they sign it if they didn’t write it? Bunch of cowardly weasles that they are!
Fr. Willis’ presentation was completely irrelevant, in that (a) nobody was there to here about the “superiority” of the Novus Ordo and (b) it was the usual Vatican II drivel that was virtually the Protestant 3rd-century-apostasy line, where everything done after that time was not authentically Christian, until Vatican II (inspired by Luther, of course) came along and brought the Church out of 1700 years of darkness.
The thing that was disturbing was that several of those attending were laypeople who had come because they thought this was an opportunity to “protest” the old use. They were mostly EEMs and people of that nature. The fact that they don’t have to attend it if they don’t want to, and that, while they are elderly, the NO will probably keep on chugging long enough for them to finish out their EEM careers, did not seem to matter to them. They particularly hate Latin, and they will do anything to prevent it.
The other disturbing thing was that the bishop keeps out of reach. He issued these guidelines, they affect his diocese, and suddenly he’s unreachable, he won’t reveal his standards for permitting priests to say the Latin mass, he’s not going to tell them how to qualify or get training, and he also plans to keep the FSSP and other institutes out of the diocese by applying the child protection policy to them on a case by case basis, which he hopes will create a delay sufficient to discourage interest among the priests! If he’s opposed to to the provisions of the MP, he should have the courage to say that to us personally, and also to tell it to the Pope. But instead, he’s taking this weird approach of staying out of sight and putting hapless bureaucrats like Fr. Willis out in the line of fire.
I don’t think anybody did record it. Fr. Willis flew into a real frenzy - red and shaking - at the poor guy from Queen of Peace radio (local EWTN provider) who was innocently sitting there to record it for broacasting later. It had already been announced on the radio that it would be broadcast, but Fr. Willis was EXTREMELY nervous and very angry, and I don’t think anybody dared to record it.
Fr. Willis sounds like a nervous type -- maybe a course of soothing TLMs would help! ;-)
Fr. Willis is a big, heavy, intimidating type of guy, although once I realized he was just a bureaucrat sent out to front for his boss, I felt a little more sympathetic to him. But I doubt that anybody dared to record it, because of course, in addition to everything else, he made legal threats, and here in Florida, it’s not legal to record even a public meeting without the permission of the speaker.
He is just chock full of all the old Vatican II anti-Tridentine cliches. His talk was like opening an old joke book and finding all the chestnuts of forever lined up in it.
Cdl. O'Malley comes close -- "doesn't apply to North America"! And really nothing further. It doesn't even look like he wrote the archdiocese "statement" -- he was on vacation when it appeared, and the only reference to him is quoted from newspaper stories. A few negative pieces in the Pilot (including a reprint of the infamous Fr. Daly column), but nothing to tie him to it.
I do wonder if there was any negative (or other) response from him about the 2 9/14 Masses in Boston. I hope neither the young priest (St. Columbkille's) or the Parish Administrator who allowed it at Holy Trinity felt any repercussions. Anyone know?
Too bad -- isn't that a little odd? I know there was a case in MA a few years ago where the judge put a gag order on someone who had recorded a parents' meeting on a sex education program and forbade dissemination. But recording was legal (though from what I heard of the content, if the speakers had known it was being recorded, they would have balked then).
Anyway, the ADD comment was so outrageous, it should make it all around the blogosphere fairly quickly -- it's already off to a good start!
Bp Snyder (predecessor of current bishop) was being disingenuous. Most of the letters probably came from Gainesville, which is in the center of the diocese, about 1 1/2 - 2 hours from Jacksonville, where the only Latin Mass is offered (at 8:00 am!).
People in Gainesville have been trying for decades to get an indult mass out there, and they were probably the ones who wrote, after being refused by Snyder. However, people who attend and are members of the Gainesville parishes can actually live in Ocala or any number of nearby places that are on the border of the Orlando diocese. These places do have a different postmark, which may technically be outside the diocese, but that doesn't mean that the people lived outside the diocese or were not members of a diocese of St. Augustine parish.
Of course, Bp Galeone is known to have simply tossed out a petition from Gainesville, bearing 250 names, that was sent to him.
Hah!!
“Be careful what you wish for . . . “ :)
[...] citation of His Holiness’ Summorum Pontificum:
Sample letters for requesting the Extraordinary Form of the Holy Mass
I read that Fr. Willis is concerned that you may have A.D.D. (all those Saints had A.D.D.?)
By any chance do you have a blog?
I hope that things will work out for your community.
mark
Because apparently they have already decided that anyone who wants it is by definition unstable, so there can never be a group that wants it which would be stable.
Prayers for the bishop and priests of this diocese. Sounds like they need it.
Not all of them?
LOL! That’s about it!
Where is this? I know St. Katherine's in Orange Park sometimes uses some latin in the daily mass, but I know of no latin mass in the area.
I think I'd like to attend for the experience.
That little problem of the parent recording a sex ed conference has become known as Fistgate. It happened in 2000 and is shocking even by Massachusetts standards. Don’t google that if you don’t want to read about the radical gay agenda in MA.
No, there are some really good bishops, of course.
But a good number of them have completely lost the Faith. I’ll leave it at that.
And there are that old quotes — supposedly attributed to three sources:
“The walls of hell are lined with the skulls of bishops.”
Saint John of the Cross
“The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.”
Attributed to St. Athanasius, St. John Chrysostom, and St. John Eudes. Probably all three said it, but I like to give credit to Athanasius because he was the earliest.
Yes, we have ADD and on top of that, we’re devious, lie about our postmarks, and just don’t understand how hard life is for the bishops. Ugh.
No, I don’t have a blog - or at any rate, not about liturgy. I’m a faithful reader of Fr. Z’s blog and also of Rorate Caeli. Barque of Peter seems to be on from JAX, which is new to me, but I’ll have to put it on my list!
Someone who was at the meeting told me he had collected 76 signatures from his parish, which he was sending to the bishop this afternoon. So we shall see. This will be the first formal request, and maybe the bishop has had time to rethink his harsh position. Or maybe he’s just become more entrenched in it, on the other hand...Stay tuned!
It’s at Immaculate Conception in downtown JAX at 8:00 am. If you’ve never seen a Latin mass before, call and see when Fr. Ed Murphy is scheduled. There are three priests there, and their style of celebration ranges from hasty and completely silent, to careful and audible in the parts that are supposed to be audible. Fr. Ed is the youngest of the priests and he’s just learned the Latin mass, but he is very careful and has a nice voice, which is helpful if you’re not familiar with the rite. Good luck!
LOL! That sums it up, I'm afraid.
Ask and you shall receive. ;-)
Antiquioris Devotionis Desiderium
Arrogant Diocesan Dingbats
Antagonistic Diocesan Domination
“Arrogant Diocesan Dingbats” has nice ring! :)
You are spot-on here. Promotions to more influential positions for those who facilitate the MP, getting the boot upstairs for those who betray an active opposition to it, and careful watching of the fence-sitting bishops with a view to “encouraging” their early retirement. A much “better” crop of episcopal candidates is about to emerge on the world stage, and room for them is about to be made.
Benedict will smoke-out the foot-draggers and malefactors by gauging their fidelity to this Motu proprio, and thus will begin Phase Two of the Restoration. Stay tuned...
I haven't heard anything about repercussions. On the contrary, the pastor at St. Columbkille's is allowing Father Anda to have a "scheduled" (ie. not "private") First Friday TLM every month, and apparently is willing to consider expanding availability from there. I haven't heard how the 9-14-07 Mass might affect Holy Trinity, one way or the other. They have petitioned for it, though.
Thanks!
The bishop comes across as a coward. He wouldn’t sign his name to the directive, he made his underling go to the meeting, he tried to hide in the pack with the other Florida bishops.
Given that apparent fact, he is likely to yield if enough pressure is brought against him.
The St Augustine bishop is known to be pretty orthodox in many things, but to have a real dislike of the old mass. I honestly don’t know why, since the people likely to go to it would also be those most likely to support his other positions (in favor of Catholic moral and ethical teachings).
But I had a sudden thought last night. Nobody, including the Bishop, is willing to admit authorship of this “memo” that he sent out. I was blaming a couple of modernist clergy in the dioces, but when I was puzzling over this last night, it suddenly occurred to me that the bishop sent this out almost immediately upon returning from a USCCB meeting where Bp. Trautperson presided over a session on the MP.
I bet the St. Augustine memo was actually based on “guidelines” dreamed up by the Trautperson committee at the USCCB meeting. The fact that bishops all over the US are now coming out with nearly identical memos and restrictions indicates to me that this was not an individual inspiration of Bp Galeone’s alone. I bet he got a draft of the memo at the meeting and was merely the first bishop to issue it, simply because he thought it would make the whole issue go away.
This would account for the secrecy surrounding the memo and the concealment of its authorship, as well as the fact that they are clearly uncertain as to how to defend it or even put it into application in the actual situation.
I always find it ironic when American bishops insist that the pope recognize their individual authority in the dioceses, citing recent "developments" in the concept of collegiality, and then turn around and act like lemmings when they sign away their individual authority in favor of these collective bureaucratic statements they constantly issue. Not just in regard to the MP, but in virtually every aspect of real and imagined Catholic import. Makes your head spin!
Do you know who else was on the Committee? Wouldn't doubt that that little (b) bishop Lynch was on it,if not in the flesh certainly in the spirit.
I keep thinking about Revelations 2 and the letter to the Church at Ephesus,Christ asks John to tell the Church that He is pleased with the fact that they have removed the "apostles",who were not "apostles",because they had lied.
I think many of these imposter bishops can be identified by their disobedience to the magisterium and their crafty prevarications and innovations. However,we must be ever so careful to proceed with our priorities straight,factual information and with utmost charity.
The other piece of the letter to Ephesus speaks to the facts that the people of the Church there have forgotten their first charity. I read that to mean they have forgotten to love God first and foremost. To love God means to honor,obey,worship,thank and do penance and that precedes all of the good works and the hard work they have done to accomplish them.
I think the Letters to the Churches are a good blueprint for a plan to save the Church this time around.
Sounds like they want the trappings of authority but not the responsibility (sort of like John Kerry running for president!). Look how cool they are, going to important meetings with other important people like themselves! Bustle. Bustle. ;-)
I agree. I really do think this is a concerted effort, and many of the people who have been sent out to defend it are not actually the ones behind it. We shouldn't alienate them, but we do have to have our ideas completely clarified and know how we need to address them.
Since I have realized that almost identical phrasing is turning up all over the country among bishops who want to resist the MP, I have felt much better about it, oddly enough.
They know that their time is over and they're desperate. Can they make life miserable? Of course. But the Lord will still assert Himself (if we do what we're supposed to, of course - this depends on us) and they will lose in the end.
Also, many of them are apparatchiks. They're doing what they're told. If they get a better bishop, or if the USCCB changes its tune, they'll probably immediately turn into the world's biggest supporters of the old rite. And they'll tell you they always did support it.
But that's okay. We're not here for glory or victory. Our Lord knows what we have done and what we do, and it really doesn't matter who claims the glory, as long as we fight the good fight and do what we are called to do.
Sandles O’Malley when informed by Fr. Connolly that we had a priest for Holy Trinity tried to renege but was told we would go to the press so he backed down.
Fr. Anda’s Mass was a big success and he got First Friday’s with a possibility of every Friday. It is a Mass heavy Church so Sunday’s would be tight. I know they have been fielding about 17-18 calls a day about the TLM. So far it has been only positive. Plus it has a large student population. Sandles has not commented on last Friday’s Mass. But with his seminarians clamoring to learn, well.......
Fr. Connolly told him you’d go to the press? Sounds like Fr. Connolly at least is sympathetic!
I know you said 7 seminarians attended the St. C. Mass — are they really asking to learn it? :)
Serratelli is scheduled to take over as the chairman of the liturgy committee in November. There's a piece on him in the July-August issue of Adoremus:
“Living in our world, we breathe the toxic air that surrounds us”, Bishop Serratelli writes. “Even within the most sacred precincts of the Church, we witness a loss of the sense of the sacred. With the enthusiasm that followed the Second Vatican Council, there was a well-intentioned effort to make the liturgy modern. It became commonplace to say that the liturgy had to be relevant to the worshipper. Old songs were jettisoned. The guitar replaced the organ. Some priests even began to walk down the road of liturgical innovation, only to discover it was a dead end. And all the while, the awareness of entering into something sacred that has been given to us from above and draws us out of ourselves and into the mystery of God was gone.”He summarizes what happened: “Teaching about the Mass began to emphasize the community. The Mass was seen as a community meal. It was something everyone did together. Lost was the notion of sacrifice. Lost the awesome mystery of the Eucharist as Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. The priest was no longer seen as specially consecrated. He was no different than the laity. With all of this, a profound loss of the sacred”.
Sounds promising!
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