Posted on 07/23/2007 7:40:23 PM PDT by topcat54
Unfortunately, Messianic Judaism is characterized by historical and theological revisionism. This makes discussion on the topic very difficult for theological conservatives like myself who respect the Church fathers for their insight into the Word of God.
It is difficult to adopt the “restorationist” views of the messianics without throwing out 2000 years of God’s work among His people.
this means we should all become pagan in our way of life, which is how the Church has interpreted that statement.
This may be your personal view, but it also seems to be common among messiancs and perhaps indicates the basic failure of messianic theology. No one in the church ever advocates “becoming pagan”. And you seem to fundamentally view everything not Jewish as pagan.
That was not the view of Paul and the apostles who saw the Church as distinct from both Jews and gentiles (pagans?). It was neither Jewish in nature nor pagan in nature. And so you are confused by referring to what the apostles advocated as “pagan”.
without one extant, we are FORBIDDEN from keeping those commandments by the commandments themselves!
So by your own admission to you have radically changed, indeed nullified, the law of God regarding the feast days to be more inline with traditions of apostate rabbis who needed to alter their traditions following God’s destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in AD70.
Assuming you are like most messianics, you observe an ersatz Passover, not the Passover of the Bible. And therefore you cannot see that you have done to the law precisely what you condemn others for doing, nullifying the commandment to suit your situation.
>> Which have been GROSSLY misinterpreted by the Church.
>
> Unfortunately, Messianic Judaism is characterized by
> historical and theological revisionism. This makes
> discussion on the topic very difficult for theological
> conservatives like myself who respect the Church fathers
> for their insight into the Word of God.
>
> It is difficult to adopt the “restorationist” views of the
> messianics without throwing out 2000 years of God’s work
> among His people.
God will many times work where it is not His Perfect Will.
>> this means we should all become pagan in our way
>> of life, which is how the Church has interpreted that
>> statement.
>
> This may be your personal view, but it also seems to be
> common among messiancs and perhaps indicates the basic
> failure of messianic theology. No one in the church ever
> advocates “becoming pagan”. And you seem to fundamentally
> view everything not Jewish as pagan.
Well, if you look at many of the traditions, they are blatantly pagan in origin. For example, check out my teaching “Christmas vs. Hanukkah: Which Would Jesus Celebrate?” at http://beit-tefillah.com/resources/xmas.html
> That was not the view of Paul and the apostles who
> saw the Church as distinct from both Jews and gentiles
> (pagans?). It was neither Jewish in nature nor pagan in
> nature. And so you are confused by referring to what the
> apostles advocated as “pagan”.
I firmly disagree. All throughout Paul’s writings, he is telling new non-Jewish Believers not to go back to their former ways. Is the word “pagan” used? No, because it was not in use at the time. But they clearly were pagan.
>> without one extant, we are FORBIDDEN from keeping
>> those commandments by the commandments themselves!
>
> So by your own admission to you have radically
> changed, indeed nullified, the law of God regarding
> the feast days to be more inline with traditions of
> apostate rabbis who needed to alter their traditions
> following God’s destruction of the temple in Jerusalem
> in AD70.
Nope. Those commandments are in the Torah:
Deuteronomy 16:5 You are not allowed to sacrifice the Passover in any of your towns which the LORD your God is giving you...
Deuteronomy 12:13-14, 26-27 Be careful not to sacrifice your burnt offerings anywhere you please. Offer them only at the place the Lord will choose in one of your tribes, and there observe everything I command you. ... But take your consecrated things and whatever you have vowed to give, and go to the place the Lord will choose. Present your burnt offerings on the altar of the Lord your God, both the meat and the blood. The blood of your sacrifices must be poured beside the altar of the Lord your God, but you may eat the meat.
(Those are just three examples.)
Certainly, we keep many traditions, but many — if not most — date back to Biblical times. In fact, I can show you most, if not all, of the elements of the traditional Passover Seder in the recorded elements of the “Last Supper.”
> Assuming you are like most messianics, you observe an
> ersatz Passover, not the Passover of the Bible. And
> therefore you cannot see that you have done to the
> law precisely what you condemn others for doing,
> nullifying the commandment to suit your situation.
I beg to differ. We keep that of the Passover that we can keep without a Temple. Only the Sacrifice is commanded to be done at the Temple. To eat bitter herbs, to eat matzah (unleavened bread), and to remember the Exodus are commandments for all time and in all places.
Well, you have obviously nullified the Word of God to suit your situation, believing you can celebrate a biblcial passover with the shedding of animal blood. Nowhere is that possibility confirmed in the Bible. Nowhere does ever say, "This is how you celebrate the passover without a temple or when you cannot shed the blood of an animal." It is a human traditon from a people under judgment.
God's new covenant people, the Church, made up of Jews and gentiles without distinction or reference to ethinic origins, celebrate according to the teaching of the apostles. We do not celebrate in a fashion invented by the apostate rabbis (after Christ came into the world) in order to deny His coming and to explain why the kingdom had been taken from them.
Messianism needs to mature in its understanding of the true nature of the covenant and God's people.
Sorry for the confusion.
You cannot be both Christian and Jewish any more than you can be both Christian and Muslim, or both Catholic and Protestant.
Messianic Christians are just Evangelical Christians who have found another way to proselytize and convert Jews to Christianity.
You can call yourselves Jews but you are not, you are Evangelical Christians and probably the only people in the world who take on the beliefs of another religion yet deny that they are members of that religion.
You are not a Rabbi, you are a Priest.
So, keeping those commandments we can is nullifying the commandments? That logic doesn’t track.
Excuse me? Who are you to judge if I am Jewish or not, or to tell my faith what we call our clergy?
You know, I *thought* this board was about people who believed in this Republic’s Constitution, and I seem to recall that Constitution saying something about the Free Practice of Religion...
Have you ever attended a genuine, Torah-Observant Messianic Congregation? Have you ever conversed with one of my fellow Torah-Observant Messianic Rabbis at length? Or are you just giving a knee-jerk, uninformed reaction?
Oh, and by the way, we don’t “proselytize and convert Jews to Christianity.” Most Torah-Observant Messianic Congregations exist simply as congregations, not evangelism vehicles. My congregation especially doesn’t do evangelism.
If you believe that Jesus is the Messiah, then you are a Christian in every way, shape and form.
If you were Jewish, you are no longer Jewish. You are Christian.
And yes, of course you are free to practice whatever religion you choose, I didn’t say you weren’t free to do so.
You are also free to call that religion whatever you choose, and to call yourself whatever you choose.
But that doesn’t change the fact that if you believe that Christ is the Messiah, then you are a Christian, and not a Jew.
I don’t see anything wrong with being a Christian, but obviously, you do.
Why not? Aren't all Christians called to evangelize?
By the way, I think Jewish Christians are beautiful. In my view my Jewish brothers and sisters in Christ give up more than any other Westerner when they come to Christ.
But you are not keeping the commandments of God as He has given them to us in His Word, just some erstaz commandments invented by the apostate rabbis for keeping a "bloodless" passover, etc.
This is the fact that the messianic have blinded themselves to. They think they are keeping the commandments, but they are not. They are merely keeping some false representation of the commandments after the traditions of men. This is proved by the fact that you cannot point to a single passage in Scripture where God says by way of commandment, “Keep the Passover this way when there is no temple or when you cannot kill an animal to shed its blood.”
This is also the reason why many theological conservatives have a hard time taking messianic “theology” seriously.
The fact is, we can keep the commandments that we are allowed to keep, by the wording of the commandments themselves. I don’t know why you can’t accept that, whether you think we should or not. It’s not like the commandments are clustered. Each one is separate. So even if we cannot (using the Passover example) make the Sacrifice because there is no Temple (and thus are keeping it by abiding by the rules that require it to be done only at the Temple), we can keep the eating bitter herbs commandment, eating unleavened bread commandment, no leavened products on our property for a week commandment, etc., etc., etc.
The fact is, we can keep the commandments that we are allowed to keep, by the wording of the commandments themselves. I don’t know why you can’t accept that,whether you think we should or not. It’s not like the commandments are clustered. Each one is separate. So even if we cannot (using the Passover example) make the Sacrifice because there is no Temple (and thus are keeping it by abiding by the rules that require it to be done only at the Temple), we can keep the eating bitter herbs commandment, eating unleavened bread commandment, no leavened products on our property for a week commandment, etc., etc., etc.
Perhaps I can’t accept it because I do not see it in the Bible. Can you point to where God says exactly in the Bible you can modify my law to suit your condition? That you can keep part of the law and not the whole law? That God gives an “out” based on circumstances?
Honestly, I do not see it at all.
Now, I understand the rabbis in their commentaries on the law have given such explanations. But we know they do not worship the God of the Bible, and have written things to deny the person of Jesus Christ come in the flesh.
So, just help me out and show me the verses.
No one is modifying anything. The commandments about the sacrifices specify they take place at the Temple. The other commandments involved do not. No modification involved.
You seem to keep saying the same thing without any reference to the Bible.
E.g., I'm waiting to see any reference to a legitimate passover service in Scripture without the killing of an animal.
In fact, we are commanded to keep it in 1 Corinthians 11:23-29. For more in-depth analysis, I recommend you buy this book I’m writing when it comes out in either August or September.
I'm afraid your exegesis of 1 Cor. 11 may be clouded by your messianic presuppositions. The fact remains that nowhere in Scripture does God authorize or explain the keeping the ersatz passover of the messianics.
7 "Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, Against the Man who is My Companion," Says the Lord of hosts. "Strike the Shepherd, And the sheep will be scattered; Then I will turn My hand against the little ones. 8 And it shall come to pass in all the land," Says the Lord, "That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one-third shall be left in it: 9 I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, 'This is My people'; And each one will say, 'The Lord is my God.' " (Zech. 13)To whom does it apply and when was it fulfilled or when will it be fulfilled?
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