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Protestants aren't proper Christians, says Pope
Daily Mail ^ | 11th July 2007 | SIMON CALDWELL

Posted on 07/10/2007 6:55:28 PM PDT by indcons

Pope Benedict XVI declared yesterday that Christian denominations other than his own were not true churches and their holy orders have no value.

Protestant leaders immediately responded by saying the claims were offensive and would hurt efforts to promote ecumenism.

Roman Catholic- Anglican relations are already strained over the Church of England's plans to ordain homosexuals and women as bishops. The claims came in a document, from a Vatican watchdog which was approved by the Pope.

It said the branches of Christianity formed after the split with Rome at the Reformation could not be called churches "in the proper sense" because they broke with a succession of popes who dated back to St Peter.

As a result, it went on, Protestant churches have "no sacramental priesthood", effectively reaffirming the controversial Catholic position that Anglican holy orders are worthless.

The document claimed the Catholic church was the "one true church of Christ".

Pope Benedict's commitment to the hardline teaching comes days after he reinstated the Mass in Latin, which was sidelined in the 1960s in an attempt to modernise.

The timing of the announcement fuelled speculation that the pontiff - regarded as an arch-conservative before his election in 2005 - is finally beginning to impose his views on the Catholic Church.

The Vatican said it was restating the position set out by the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in 2000 in a document called Domine Jesus because theologians continued to misunderstand it.

At that time, Anglican leaders from around the world made their anger felt by snubbing an invitation to join Pope John Paul II as he proclaimed St Thomas More the patron saint of politicians.

Bishop Wolfgang Huber, head of the Evangelical Church in Germany, said the Vatican document effectively downgraded Protestant churches and would make ecumenical relations more difficult.

He said the pronouncement repeated the "offensive statements" of the 2000 document and was a "missed opportunity" to patch up relations with Protestants.


TOPICS: Catholic
KEYWORDS: catholics; pope; protestants; vatican
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To: jude24

Thanks, Jude for your two cents. You did an excellent job (I’m not expert enough to say “flawless”, but it was quite good) of presenting the Catholic Church’s position. I wish the AP or Reuters would hire *you* as a religious correspondent. (Then they could also get excellent coverage of Calvinist news, too!)


441 posted on 07/12/2007 9:48:15 AM PDT by dangus
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To: Revelation 911

Do you think that Giordano Bruno was persecuted for his scientific views?


442 posted on 07/12/2007 10:01:28 AM PDT by LeGrande (Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.)
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To: P-Marlowe; Invincibly Ignorant
Do Muslims worship the Creator of the Universe? NO. Because they deny that Jesus is the Creator.

So, is it also Calvinist belief that the Jews do not worship the Creator of the Universe because the Jews deny that Jesus is the Creator?

443 posted on 07/12/2007 10:06:23 AM PDT by Titanites
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To: Titanites
So, is it also Calvinist belief that the Jews do not worship the Creator of the Universe because the Jews deny that Jesus is the Creator?

You'd have to ask a Calvinist.

Jews who deny Christ are not worshiping the God revealed in the scriptures. Unless, of course, Jesus is not that God.

Is Jesus the God of the scriptures?

Is Jesus the Creator?

Do Jews worship Him?

444 posted on 07/12/2007 10:21:06 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
You'd have to ask a Calvinist.

I thought that was you bragging recently about an on line quiz that indicated your belief was Calvinist, although you claim not to be.

Jews who deny Christ are not worshiping the God revealed in the scriptures.

So, your belief is the Jews do not worship the Creator?

445 posted on 07/12/2007 10:29:22 AM PDT by Titanites
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To: conservonator; P-Marlowe; jude24

Agreed that all truth is from God, yet something that merely contains an element of truth is no longer truth.

Consider a lie.

A lie is in essence a twisted truth. It has enough truth in it to confuse and appeal, yet digresses at some important point.

We can affirm that which is true, but it is also important (in God’s time and in God’s ways) to teach, correct and rebuke where the truth has been distorted.


As to Benedict’s statement on Protestants, I would suggest we all judge by the standards of scripture. Look for evidence of the workings of the Holy Spirit, which is the seal of Christ upon man (Ephesians 1:14). Look for evidence of the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Gal 5:22), a love for their neighbour, a love of God and his Word, and obedience to that Word (James 1:22-25, Matthew 28:20).

God’s ‘church’ is not a building or a denomination, but the body of Christ (Col 1:24) which is made up of all those who are baptized in His Spirit (1Cor 12:13). It is not headship to a human Pope we should be looking to, but headship and clear ‘succession’ from Christ Jesus.

Within these standards, I see little to no reference to Apostolic Succession or human (or alter Christus, acting in persona Christi) delivery of the Eucharist as standards for determining a ‘church’.


446 posted on 07/12/2007 10:31:54 AM PDT by DragoonEnNoir
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To: wmfights
There is a world of difference between apostolic succession and historic lineage.

Agreed. I mean, the Catholics don't claim to have apostles do they? It is my understanding even the Pope only claims to be a bishop. This would mean apostolic succession is not a claim that the positions of the 12 apostles were maintained, but rather that some inferior priesthood lineage was maintained from the priesthood given to the 12 apostles, i.e. the bishop and inferior priesthood offices were maintained.

447 posted on 07/12/2007 10:32:52 AM PDT by TheDon (The DemocRAT party is the party of TREASON! Overthrow the terrorist's congress!)
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To: P-Marlowe
That is true, but your entire cut-and-paste argument was designed to REFUTE the scriptures. The scriptures say Jesus had brothers and sisters.

Wrong. That is what is in question.

448 posted on 07/12/2007 10:36:29 AM PDT by frogjerk (If ignorance was bliss, liberals would be happy.)
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To: Elsie

Hi Elsie,

Thank you for the post, but might I point out that it isn’t entirely clear what your point is.

If you are saying that the reference to ‘the rock’ in Matthew 16 refers to Christ, and not Peter, I would say that you are quite possibly correct, though Christ may have meant that Peter would be instrumental in the early life of the church.

If on the other hand you are implying that Peter was in some ways taking on Christ’s mantle and ‘becoming’ another Christ, then I would strongly disagree.

I don’t THINK you mean the latter... but I just wanted to ask you to make sure.


449 posted on 07/12/2007 10:41:16 AM PDT by DragoonEnNoir
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To: P-Marlowe
So often I see the "official" arguments of the Catholic Church cut and pasted here when the poster runs out of their own ammunition. The fact is that you (personally) don't have any of your own arguments so you rely on the arguments of others. That's fine. Grasping at straws is fair game here.

That is the faith of the Church which I profess. I have no problem with seeking out and reading the discussions and contemplations of the Church Fathers and Great Saints throughout the ages for answers.

If you are relying upon you own interpretation of scripture for your faith than what can I say but good luck.

450 posted on 07/12/2007 10:42:06 AM PDT by frogjerk (If ignorance was bliss, liberals would be happy.)
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To: FastCoyote
But on this type of subterfuge does the Mormon Church rely.

You can tell me the truth ^_^ Are you really Yoda?k

If Mormonism is the True religion, then it must predate (traditional) Christianity.

Wouldn't any true religion predate Christianity? Are you stating that God didn't exist prior to being born 2000 years ago? Hmm, I think you are right ^_^

Therefore, Mormons should be claiming to be Mormons and the rest of us failed Mormons.

That doesn't make any sense. Why would Mormons consider a Taoist or a Muslim to be a failed Mormon? Or do you think that everyone was a Mormon originally? That would actually bolster Mormon claims then, wouldn't it?

In other words, it is a lie to claim to be part of an abomination (Christianity) while simultaneously claiming to precede and supersede this abomination.

I guess if you think that Christianity didn't exist prior to the Birth of Christ, 2000 years ago, you would be correct. If most Christians agree with the Mormons that Christ predates the existence of the earth then you would be wrong.

What is your definition of Christ's existence prior to his Birth?

451 posted on 07/12/2007 10:45:19 AM PDT by LeGrande (Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.)
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To: frogjerk
If you are relying upon you own interpretation of scripture for your faith than what can I say but good luck.

Commas are your friends.

452 posted on 07/12/2007 10:46:41 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: blue-duncan
You see, the author’s dilemma is that to say “brother” and “sisters” don’t mean blood relations, would throw into question the usage of the word “son”.

Non sequitur. We are talking about the use of the word brother here not son.

So it stands to reason why Jesus entrusted His mother to His cousin, since by Mark 6:3, none of His brothers were there at the cross.

Except Jesus entrusted His Mother to the care of John.

Question: Since there were only two James in the list of Apostles, which one was Jesus' "Brother".

453 posted on 07/12/2007 10:48:16 AM PDT by frogjerk (If ignorance was bliss, liberals would be happy.)
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To: Elsie
Are you over here causin' trouble again? ;^)

Yeah ^_^ I saw this wonderful post about the Pope saying that non Catholics aren't really Christians and I just had to share the good news : )

From an outsiders perspective, this all seems bizarre. All these Christians telling each other that they aren't Christians.

454 posted on 07/12/2007 10:52:12 AM PDT by LeGrande (Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.)
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To: LeGrande
I saw this wonderful post about the Pope saying that non Catholics aren't really Christians and I just had to share the good news : )

MSM: HOOK, LINE AND SINKER!

455 posted on 07/12/2007 10:55:16 AM PDT by frogjerk (If ignorance was bliss, liberals would be happy.)
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To: frogjerk
MSM: HOOK, LINE AND SINKER!

Shh, we don't want to let the secret out.

456 posted on 07/12/2007 11:07:36 AM PDT by LeGrande (Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.)
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To: conservonator; XeniaSt; Buggman

You apparently did not read my posts on the subject what I have said. I said that the Muslims & the Muslim Book do NOT recognize a Triune God. I posted a Mullah saying that same thing. He included an excerpt from his holy book.

I then demonstrated that the Old Testament DOES give reference to a Triune God. I quoted Paul who demonstrates the same. Paul says that the Jews are “blind” to this. However, it is still there.

So, if the Jews are worshipping the God named, YHWH, and this God has a different 3 part personality than they’ve discovered yet, they are STILL worshipping YHWH. They are worshipping in ignorance the One whom we worship in Truth.


457 posted on 07/12/2007 11:28:00 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: frogjerk

“Since there were only two James in the list of Apostles, which one was Jesus’ “Brother”.”

I don’t know which list you are referring to but if you are thinking of the original Disciples, he was not one of them. His cousin James, the son of Zebedee, and James, the Less (Alpheus) were the original Disciples. James, his cousin, and Pastor of the church at Jerusalem was martyred right before Paul’s second visit to Jerusalem. In all probability, since James, the Lord’s brother was elevated to the office of Pastor of the Jerusalem church, he was in all probability elected an Apostle like Matthias was in Acts 1 so that their number would be twelve.


458 posted on 07/12/2007 11:40:53 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan
he was in all probability elected an Apostle like Matthias was in Acts 1 so that their number would be twelve.

Where is this in scripture or are you relying upon "tradition"?

459 posted on 07/12/2007 12:16:39 PM PDT by frogjerk (If ignorance was bliss, liberals would be happy.)
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To: frogjerk; blue-duncan

He was relying on Peter’s saying that the Apostles should elect another to replace Judas. In other words, once James, John’s brother, was killed, they would continue to follow that pattern.

Nonetheless, there would be other reasons to include James, Jesus’ brother, among the leadership of the church in Jerusalem. After all, he would have impeccable knowledge about Jesus’ family background.


460 posted on 07/12/2007 12:21:16 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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