Protestants aren't proper Christians, says Pope

Daily Mail ^ | 11th July 2007 | SIMON CALDWELL

[indcons]

Pope Benedict XVI declared yesterday that Christian denominations other than his own were not true churches and their holy orders have no value.

Protestant leaders immediately responded by saying the claims were offensive and would hurt efforts to promote ecumenism.

Roman Catholic- Anglican relations are already strained over the Church of England's plans to ordain homosexuals and women as bishops. The claims came in a document, from a Vatican watchdog which was approved by the Pope.

It said the branches of Christianity formed after the split with Rome at the Reformation could not be called churches "in the proper sense" because they broke with a succession of popes who dated back to St Peter.

As a result, it went on, Protestant churches have "no sacramental priesthood", effectively reaffirming the controversial Catholic position that Anglican holy orders are worthless.

The document claimed the Catholic church was the "one true church of Christ".

Pope Benedict's commitment to the hardline teaching comes days after he reinstated the Mass in Latin, which was sidelined in the 1960s in an attempt to modernise.

The timing of the announcement fuelled speculation that the pontiff - regarded as an arch-conservative before his election in 2005 - is finally beginning to impose his views on the Catholic Church.

The Vatican said it was restating the position set out by the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in 2000 in a document called Domine Jesus because theologians continued to misunderstand it.

At that time, Anglican leaders from around the world made their anger felt by snubbing an invitation to join Pope John Paul II as he proclaimed St Thomas More the patron saint of politicians.

Bishop Wolfgang Huber, head of the Evangelical Church in Germany, said the Vatican document effectively downgraded Protestant churches and would make ecumenical relations more difficult.

He said the pronouncement repeated the "offensive statements" of the 2000 document and was a "missed opportunity" to patch up relations with Protestants.

[wmfights]

Of course, break offs from the Catholic church do have a bit of a problem in regard to upholding apostolic succession. :^)

There is a world of difference between apostolic succession and historic lineage. While you may be able to trace a long lineage, with some gaps here and there, that in no way confers supernatural powers on those in that line. The claim that because there is a long history that everybody must "toe the line" or you won't be a "proper" Christian is an affront to our Saviour and the life he led amongst us.

BTW, not all Christians are protestants.

[Uri’el-2012]

So you are saying that Jews believe in Christ?

LOL

419 posted on 07/12/2007 6:44:15 AM MDT by LeGrande

Yes, a Torah-observant Jew believes in the Mashiach.

They may not know His name is Yah'shua ( YHvH is become my Salvation )

The need for salvation by the mashiaich (Christ).

Exodus 15:2 YHvH is my strength and song, and He is become my salvation;
this is my Elohim, and I will glorify Him; my father's Elohim, and I will exalt Him.

Psalm 118:14 YHvH is my strength and song; and He is become my salvation.

Isaiah 12:2 Behold, Elohim is my salvation; I will trust, and will not be afraid;
for Elohim, YHvH is my strength and song; and He is become my salvation.'

b'shem Yah'shua

[DanielLongo]

I have heard some Catholics (granted, not all) say that Catholicism is the only way to Heaven. It is much less likely to hear that proclamation from a Baptist, Episcipalian, etc...

You are right. They always couch their response in the negative. Such as:

If you don't believe what I believe then you are going to hell.

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints I can say that with certainty.

[lupie]

So, you see that your pope is condemming those who are in his church. If you don't like that word, you can say he is calling them less righteous than himself and his disciples. He is also justifying the faith of those who follow the demonic, pagan god of Islam. Compare that to Proverbs 17:15.

He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the LORD.

[conservonator]

Yes, I saw that, however I don't regard you as a valid source of Catholic doctrine. Do you have anything from an authoritative Catholic source that supports your claim?

[conservonator]

I know from past experience expecting even a modicum of intellectual honesty from you and other disciples of Calvin is asking a lot, but I think it’s obvious to most people that I am not speaking for Muslims, I’m simply repeating what they claim to believe in order to help you understand what the catechism teaches. If I was speaking for them I would not just give a short description of what they believe, I would explain why they believe what they believe, give evidence, cite sources etc, but I haven’t and I won’t because I don’t speak for them. They claim and believe that they worship the God of Abraham, that’s not my claim that’s theirs. I have no idea if the God of Abraham hears them as He hears a Christian.

[conservonator]

Once again, I’m not an apologist for Muslims or Jews, both claim to worship the God of Abraham, the same God we Worship. It seems rather inconsistent to say the Jews worship the same God as Christians do, but deny that the Muslims do. Both Jews and Muslims reject the trinity and both reject the gospel. I’m left to believe that both worship the same God, one in a highly defective and destructive way, the other in a defective but far less destructive way.

If I was faced with the prospect of preaching the gospel to Muslims, I would thank God that He gave them at least a basic understanding of the monotheism and work from there. I think it would be highly counter productive and a bit foolish to say to a Muslim "you worship a rock or the moon and not God, despite what you think" as a precursor to conversion. Far better to say, "you know God, let me tell you about fullness of His revelation and His plan for your salvation.". But if you think the "you worship the moon" approach is more effective, go for it!

[conservonator]

Your saying that Muslims don't worship the God of Abraham doesn't make it so. Do Jews worship the God of Abraham? They reject Christ, the Trinity and the gospel too.

One more time for the comprehension impaired, Islam is a false religion with little chance of offering salvation to anyone except that it might lead a Muslim to Christ by the defective yet basic concept of monotheism. Islam does not save, it kills.

[conservonator]

I’m not seeing much that we disagree on, other than a belief that God has a particular plan for the Muslims in His plan of salvation. Islam is a false religion, it does not and can not save anyone. Salvation is through Christ.

[Uri’el-2012]

Once again, I’m not an apologist for Muslims or Jews, both claim to worship the God of Abraham, the same God we Worship. It seems rather inconsistent to say the Jews worship the same God as Christians do, but deny that the Muslims do. Both Jews and Muslims reject the trinity and both reject the gospel. I’m left to believe that both worship the same God, one in a highly defective and destructive way, the other in a defective but far less destructive way.

You seem to to be viewing this through the wrong end of the telescope.

The Jews through the Word worship the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac and Israel.

Christians are through the Christ are grafted into Abraham and thus worship the Elohim of Abraham.

The Muslims worship Allah whose origin is not of Abraham.

Many believe that Allah is the Father of all Lies as he is haSatan.

This is evidenced by the requirements by Allah through the Qur'an.

b'shem Yah'shua

[lupie]

Islam is a false religion with little chance of offering salvation to anyone except that it might lead a Muslim to Christ by the defective yet basic concept of monotheism. Nothing can lead a muslim to Christ except the Holy Spirit and nothing is impossible with God. Islam does not save, it kills.

There, I fixed it! :)

You are right, my saying so does not make it so. That is why I linked you to the Koran and some Christian commentary that easily shows that they are not the same God. All you have to do is a little research, just google a few sites. Or even better, read some of the Koran and will not take long for those who know His voice to realize that it is NOT His voice. I pray that you would do so that you would realize that ANYONE who says they worship the same God should be either corrected, given the Truth as we have tried here, or ...

[OLD REGGIE]

but of course that easily obfuscates the point of the post doesnt it - that was your intent wasnt it ?

Not at all. My point was to reinforce the necessity of giving credit where credit is due.

Actually, I read the entire post. It proved nothing.

[P-Marlowe]

I know from past experience expecting even a modicum of intellectual honesty from you and other disciples of Calvin is asking a lot,

I suggest that if you believe that you worship the same God that the Muslims worship, then you are not worshiping the God of Christianity. Jesus Christ is the God of Christianity. Do Muslims worship Jesus?

Jesus is the Creator of the Universe, is he not? Do Muslims worship the Creator of the Universe? NO. Because they deny that Jesus is the Creator.

So unless Abraham believed in a different Creator, then Abraham did not believe in the same God the Muslims believe in, nor do the Muslims worship the same God that Abraham believed in.

Rather than throw rocks at those of us who recognize that worshiping Allah is blasphemy and idolatry, why don't you just put two and two together.

[OLD REGGIE]

For example, what does this prove?

Albert Einstein (1879-1955) Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

He certainly wouldn't have been accepted as a Christian, though the Unitarians might have given him a home.

[conservonator]

You, like the others are missing the point, they, the Muslims believe they worship the God of Abraham it is pointless and counter productive to argue that point, but it is wholly useful to start with their belief in one God and with the help of the Holy Spirit, move them to a fuller, more accurate understanding of the One God.

[conservonator]

Pray for their conversion, that’s about all I have to say about the Muslims.

[Uri’el-2012]

Can you save the souls of others?

Or do you ascribe that to the Ru'ach HaKodesh?

b'shem Yah'shua

[OLD REGGIE]

“Accepted usage” perhaps but not preferred. Sadly, there are many who speak a substandard English and that is a shame. I prefer to make an effort to use the language in as articulate a manner as possible. If that makes me silly, so be it. I have to refrain from admonishing those who insist that “they could care less” on every thread. As for me,I will attempt to be as precise and fluent as possible when communicating.

I am in complete agreement with you but there is little we can do with the "progress" of language usage.

Like you, I still attempt to use language the way it was taught "in my day". (In my case 60+ years ago.) :-)

Keep up the good work. Let's hope you have an influence on those around you.

[conservonator]

Muslims believe they worship the God of Abraham, what I believe is that they worship in vain since they deny Christ. You and I are not as far apart as you want to believe, I just don’t see any point in saying that they don’t believe in what they claim to believe in. I think and the catechism states that the gift of a monotheistic belief, even one as defective as the one they have, contains and element of truth, and all truth is form God, was given to the Muslim people for a reason. What that reason is and what God’s plan is for the conversion of the Muslims is beyond me, all I can say is Thy will be done!

Calvinism, like Mohammedanism, is a perversion of Truth, one more deadly than the other, but both poison.

[conservonator]

Only God saves, how He does the saving is up to Him.