Posted on 07/10/2007 6:55:28 PM PDT by indcons
Pope Benedict XVI declared yesterday that Christian denominations other than his own were not true churches and their holy orders have no value.
Protestant leaders immediately responded by saying the claims were offensive and would hurt efforts to promote ecumenism.
Roman Catholic- Anglican relations are already strained over the Church of England's plans to ordain homosexuals and women as bishops. The claims came in a document, from a Vatican watchdog which was approved by the Pope.
It said the branches of Christianity formed after the split with Rome at the Reformation could not be called churches "in the proper sense" because they broke with a succession of popes who dated back to St Peter.
As a result, it went on, Protestant churches have "no sacramental priesthood", effectively reaffirming the controversial Catholic position that Anglican holy orders are worthless.
The document claimed the Catholic church was the "one true church of Christ".
Pope Benedict's commitment to the hardline teaching comes days after he reinstated the Mass in Latin, which was sidelined in the 1960s in an attempt to modernise.
The timing of the announcement fuelled speculation that the pontiff - regarded as an arch-conservative before his election in 2005 - is finally beginning to impose his views on the Catholic Church.
The Vatican said it was restating the position set out by the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in 2000 in a document called Domine Jesus because theologians continued to misunderstand it.
At that time, Anglican leaders from around the world made their anger felt by snubbing an invitation to join Pope John Paul II as he proclaimed St Thomas More the patron saint of politicians.
Bishop Wolfgang Huber, head of the Evangelical Church in Germany, said the Vatican document effectively downgraded Protestant churches and would make ecumenical relations more difficult.
He said the pronouncement repeated the "offensive statements" of the 2000 document and was a "missed opportunity" to patch up relations with Protestants.
I took a Ronco Popeil pole and it was unanimous that Alex was not to grow up.
Wow.
I guess the Jews are delegated to the back of the bus, huh?
Lookee here:
...together with us they adore the one, merciful God
"Adore." Isn't that what Catholics do to Mary?
BTW wasn't the Creator Jesus Christ?
Do Muslims believe that Jesus is the Creator?
Do Catholics believe that?
I'm confused.
Is Islam just another Roman Catholic schism?
Hehe! I heard about this on the radio today. It is quite funny considering recent comments on FR... :^)
Thank you for your encouragements, dear brother in Christ!
Now that you know, I trust that you will refrain from posting this section of the catechism in a misleading way again.
Two points.
1) It's sad that the RCC puts muslims in "first place" over the Jews.
And
2) My point was that according to the catechism of the RCC, the edicts of the council of Trent are still in force, i.e...
1376 - The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring...
Therefore, while the RCC accords muslims a place of respect, the RCC echoes Trent in its anathematizing of us Protestants.
Pitiful.
The Church and non-Christians
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330
842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them: Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
That's because YOU are a Scientist!
Ha! I like that picture. So true.
See post #227
Acts 1
15 ¶ And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he aburst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his cresurrection.
23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Sorry, I meant “conservonator.”
See post #225.
A good question for any Christian.
"to be a true church one has to accept the ludicrous idea that the Pope is in some special way the successor of the apostle Peter and the supreme earthly leader of the Church.".
As I'm sure you know, a "pap smear" is a test to screen out cervical cancer from healthy cervical tissue. Thus, a "papal smear" could be employed to screen out the presence of "apostolic succession", i.e. the Primacy of Peter, from among other doctrinal beliefs. If you don't believe in it, you're not a "true church".
More often than not, Catholic apologetics define "who's a Protestant" historically and currently, solely on the condition of "do you pledge obedience to the Holy See?" It's the use of this lone condition that explains how they can redefine "Protestant" to include Reformers, Evangelicals, Charismatics, cultists, and Rastafarians together, and then castigate all based on the worst of the lot.
Now you know what a papal smear is.
I just don't get how such an apostate can actually be called the "vicar" of Christ while saying that His enemies adore Him. Ugh. All other doctrinal issues aside, that is enough to disqualify him as being a spokesman for the Lord Jesus Christ and those who follow Him.
Issue all the edicts you want, but coming from a false church, they aren’t worth the paper they are written on.
= = =
I have experienced otherwise.
An A of G Pastor of a church 1 block from a 10,000 member Northern Arizona Univ . . . callously refused to send a post card, make a phone call, visit a couple of college men who had dropped out of his church—met with him—and seriously invited him to contact them for some chats in the future. One became an atheist and the other an agnostic after . . . in their view . . . giving God and the church a repeated fair shot.
Certainly they have their responsibility for their own behaviors. But 6 months or so later with no contact from that Pastor, one blew his brains out.
I prayed . . . earnestly that God would change the Pastor and his wife; or move them on; or take them home to Heaven—whatever God’s wisdom chose. In less than a year—after expecting to be there another decade or two—as I understood it—they moved and then both died.
There was also an old bitty who had worked at the Grand Canyon for over a decade and who’s husband worked for the Park Service there. She was caustic, poisonous to most who’s life she touched, including my 89 year old boss—the historic figure Emory Kolb—there.
Again, I earnestly prayed that God would change her, move her on or take her out of this life—whatever He saw fit to do. In less than a year, as I recall, they were transferred against their will, as I understood it.
Those are not the only examples of such in my life.
But they are also nothing compared to what is coming.
I have stated on other threads that
Holy Spirit’s ANOINTING does NOT tend to stay with any given congregation—much less any given denomination.
People are like the children of Israel in the wilderness—Moses is gone too long and the idols come out of the woodwork. If nothing else, they make an idol of the group; their idiosyncratic theological or sociological or behavioral distinctives and rituals.
Holy Spirit will have none of that and if they persist, He will lift His anointing.
He is very good at testing both people and groups as to what their top priorities are.
It seems clear to me that !!!!TRADITIONS!!!! and doctrines of men are more important to the RC hierarchy than God is. No way was whatever anointing MAY have rested on the Bishop of Rome initially . . . would persist with such for competition.
And, when THE ANOINTING LIFTS . . . SO DOES THE BULK OF THE AUTHORITY. The shell may remain—but it’s a hollow, worthless shell with no real power.
As Scripture says, warning about the end times . . . they will have a FORM OF GODLINESS BUT DENY THE POWER THEREOF.
Indeed, sadly.
Thankfully, not all RC’s are in that boat. But the Pope sounds like he is. And he shall answer for it and for every spiritual child he has led astray accordingly.
You will live to see the day when children younger than 7 shall, speaking under the anointing of Holy Spirit SHALL stop whole military battalions—and via God’s angelic forces—send them to destruction.
You shall see children call down fire out of Heaven which shall consume whole neighborhoods or larger.
You shall see children speak a word and every individual within earshot will be healed and delivered of all that plagues them.
Harry Potter will look like blind children playing pickup sticks with mittens on, by comparison with what God Almighty will be doing through HIS EVEN YOUNG kids.
The enemy’s counterfeit will have virtually no showing to a very embarrassing showing up against God’s team.
Oh, there will be counterfeit supernatural demonstrations—even a counterfeit resurrection. Scripture is clear about that. But it will fall in it’s own pit. God shall raise up a Standard. God WILL PREVAIL though satan has convinced the globalist puppet masters that satan wins at Armageddon.
In any case, HOLY SPIRIT’S ANOINTING is a key issue for our era—for any era, true—but particularly for this era. Either Holy Spirit’s anointing is tangibly demonstrably and spiritually disceringly THERE, or it is not.
And, as Scripture says, THE ANOINTING BREAKS THE YOKE of oppression etc.
The rest is human noise and chaff. The RC edifice has lots of expensive chaff, fossilized chaff . . . as do lots of other Christian organizations . . . including, sadly, the larger Pentecostal ones.
It seems to me, that God has to periodically break individuals, groups/congregations and organizations to get them to constantly refocus on GOD ALONE.
Some of it just the layers of the onion training program that seems slated for all of us. Some of it seems to relate to our chronic waywardness as humans.
A truly humble, broken, servant-hearted, loving, anointed leader in constant intimacy with God can model and lead otherwise. I think John Wimber was as close as I’ve seen of that in my lifetime. There is a Pastor Coleman—a thin elderly black lady in Phoenix who fills a Pastoral role in that way—and God definitely speaks and moves through her—I’ve experienced it now 4 times myself.
But, as she asserts—most are not willilng to pay the price in fasting and prayer to walk persistently in God’s anointing and in ACTIVE intimacy with God 24/7.
It’s been a long time since I was even close to willing to pay that price. Sadly. Getting closer again to it, though. By His grace.
I’m not real fond of edicts. I don’t even think God is. But they have their fitting place and time.
One of the RC’s hereon who walks in Holy Spirit significantly—as I understand it—believes that the RC edifice is scheduled for some dramatic wake-up calls by God. We shall see. certainly the whole of Christendom needs it.
This is an era when spiritual leaders and governmental leaders are falling all over themselves trying to conform themselves to the spirit and goals of our time—globalism led by satan. There are consequences for that—serious consequences. They will appear increasingly dramatically in their fitting times.
May God have mercy on us all.
May those with discernment and anointing discern what I have predicted in this post—and post their sensing on whatever degree of validity they feel in their spirit that such predictions have, before God and man.
Blessings,
If you have to misrepresent the position of the Church to make your point, maybe you should reconsider your position. Just a thought.
============================================================================= 838 The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324
Pleas explain to this poor old ignorant fool the exact meaning of Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."
Please pay particular attention to "certain, although imperfect,". No Catholicspeak. Plain English please.
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