On the trail of the crusaders

The Brisbane Times ^ | July 7, 2007 | Paula Goodyer

[OLD REGGIE]

In all seriositude, you got a source you'd recommend for an account of this period and the Albigensians? I have heard that they were kind of rough on my guy, St. Dominic, and on Bishop Diego. But I sure don't want to get into a, "Mommy, he started it," discussion.

Frankly, I don't believe a complete, original, accurate, record exists. We are left with "historical" (hysterical) accounts based on hearsay and incomplete documents.

I'm kind of glad we don't massacre heretics anymore. It's way more fun to bore them to death.

Waitaminute, I'm a heretic. Rather than being bored to death I am amused at the people who know the complete story when no authentic record exists.

[Uncle Chip]

For those who don't or can't remember ---

July 22, 1209 : Horrible Massacre at Beziers in the Name of Christ

"The knights and bishops in control of the crusade could easily have stopped the bloodshed. Instead, they did nothing to halt the slaughter. A horde of howling camp-followers raged through the city, killing everyone they found. They entered the churches, where the town's folk huddled in terror, and butchered them in cold blood, although some of the victims undoubtedly hoped for divine intervention as they held up relics and crucifixes.

"The assault against the Cathars at Beziers. The pope's representative seemed untroubled by the massacre when he wrote to his master, Innocent III, that "neither age, nor sex, nor status had been spared." In fact, a popular account said that Arnald-Amaury, the pope's legate, was asked at the height of the butchery how the killers should distinguish Catholic from heretic. He was said to have replied."Kill them all; God will recognize his own." Although this cannot be verified, it indicates how some contemporaries felt about the event.

"Beziers is a city in Southern France, near the Mediterranean, across from Italy. We associate crusades with the Middle East. So how come a crusade was taking place there?

"The region of southern and western France was infected with movements which opposed Catholicism. Especially strong in that area were the Cathars, also known as Albigenses (because they were strongest around Albi). According to Catholic sources, the Cathars had corrupted Christian teachings with many false doctrines. (Virtually all Cathar literature was destroyed so we know little about what they really taught.) However, Cathar elders lived holy lives, and in an age in which the church was rich, top-heavy, and corrupt, the simple, pure Cathars attracted many followers.

"The pope offered wicked men pardon for their sins if they would undertake a crusade against the heretics. The prospect of loot excited many to join the army. The crusaders swept down upon Beziers, arriving July 21, 1209. The city was well-provisioned for a fight. Catholic and heretic alike joined to defend it against the crusaders. That Beziers did not give the invaders a real fight was owing to a mistake. On this day, July 22, 1209, a group of defenders rode out with white pennants shooting arrows at the crusaders. They killed one. Furious, a bunch of rag-tag camp followers, without proper weapons, rushed the walls. Beziers had not expected an attack so soon; the walls were not properly manned. Defenders fled. Within three hours, the crusaders had taken a city that they had thought they would have to beseige for several months.

"The knights and bishops did nothing to stop the killing. But when the poor soldiers began to loot, the knights stepped in. The plunder was for them. They found it easy enough to stop their followers then. But some of the looters, angry at being cheated out of their share of the spoils, set buildings on fire. Soon much of the town was ablaze, and within a few hours the crusaders had to pull out, the heat was so intense. Many valuables perished in the blaze.

"The fall of Beziers doomed the Cathars. Many Catholics made terms with the crusaders, handing over local Cathars. In other places, Cathars abandoned their cities and burned their castles so the invaders could not use them. But Carcassone, a Cathar stronghold, held out for several months and managed to obtain decent terms of surrender."

[by the Staff or associates of Christian History Institute. © Copyright 1999-2006. All rights reserved.]

[Mad Dawg]

I’ll have to try harder on the boring to death thing. Darn.

[Campion]

Slaughter is a "response" now.

Given that the Albigenses taught that procreation was evil, and given that the Muslim threat was only a few hundred miles away in Spain by this time (so decimating the population by teaching them buggery, abortion, and ritual suicide was more dangerous than usual), I'd say that that "slaughter" had a significant element of self-defense associated with it.

That's not to say it was the right thing to do, only that there are two sides to the story, and you see only one.

Religious cults don't always bring out the best reactions in bystanders. If you don't believe me, just mention "Waco" to Bill Clinton or Janet Reno.

[Campion]

The Reformation was fought with faith and Scripture.

Tell it to Margaret Clitherow.

[OLD REGGIE]

I’ll have to try harder on the boring to death thing. Darn.

It wasn't you I had in mind with this comment: "Rather than being bored to death I am amused at the people who know the complete story when no authentic record exists." :-)

If you really want to bore me to death just lecture me on all the reasons why I should return to the RCC or to Protestantism for that matter.

Let it be known I am much more in sympathy with the "Protestant" (there are some exceptions) position.

[OLD REGGIE]

For those who don't or can't remember ---

July 22, 1209 : Horrible Massacre at Beziers in the Name of Christ

I know I'm old but not that old. :-) I can remember things which happened in the 1930's though.

[OLD REGGIE]

"Given that the Albigenses taught that procreation was evil,..."

This man thought sex, and necessarily procreation, was pretty "icky" too.

1 Corinthians 7:

[1] Now concerning the matters about which you wrote. It is well for a man not to touch a woman.
[2] But because of the temptation to immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.
[3] The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.
[4] For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not rule over his own body, but the wife does.
[5] Do not refuse one another except perhaps by agreement for a season, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self-control.
[6] I say this by way of concession, not of command.
[7] I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.
[8] To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do.

You wouldn't be here if Paul had his way.

[Mad Dawg]

Of course this was written by Catholics and is therefore nothing but a pack of lies. I post it only to amuse our Protestant friends. When we're not creating death squads, we have to amuse ourselves somehow. It can't all be blood and vain repetitions, after all. SOME time must be given to fables and vain imaginings.

Commonwealth (1649-1659)

• 1649: Robert Netterville, priest, S.J. -- died at Drogheda, 19 June, of a severe beating with sticks;
• 1649: John Vath, priest, S.J., and his brother Thomas, secular priest, Dominic Dillon, O.P., prior at Urlar, Richard Oveton, O.P., prior at Athy, Peter Taaffe, O.S.A., prior at Drogheda -- slain in Drogheda massacre;
• 1649: Bernard Horumley (? Gormley), priest, O.S.F. -- hanged, Drogheda;
• 1649: Raymund Stafford, priest, Paul Synnott, priest, John Esmond, priest, Peter Stafford, priest, Didacus Cheevers and Joseph Rochford, lay brothers, Franciscans -- slain in Wexford massacre;
• 1649: James O'Reilly, priest, O.P. -- slain near Clonmel;
• 1649: William Lynch, priest, O.P. -- hanged.
• 1650: Boetius Egan, O.S.F., Bishop of Ross, celebrated for exhorting the garrison of Carrigadrehid Castle to maintain their post against Broghill -- dismembered and hanged;
• 1650: Miler Magrath (Father Michael of the Rosary), priest, O.P. -- hanged, Clonmel;
• 1650: Francis Fitzgerald, priest, O.S.F. -- hanged, Cork;
• 1650: Walter de Wallis, priest, O.S.F., and Antony Musæus (? Hussey), priest, O.S.F. -- hanged, Mullingar;
• 1650: John Dormer, O.S.F. -- died in prison, Dublin;
• 1650: Nicholas Ugan, or Ulagan, O.S.F. -- hanged with his girdle;
• 1650: Thomas Plunkett and twelve other Franciscans, Eugene O'Teman, O.S.F. -- flogged and cut to pieces by soldiers.
• 1651: Franciscans: Denis O'Neilan, priest, hanged, Inchicronan, Co. Clare; Thaddæus O'Carrighy, priest, hanged near Ennis; Hugh McKeon, priest, died in prison, Athlone; Roger de Mara (MacNamara), priest, shot and hanged, Clare Castle; Daniel Clanchy and Jeremiah O'Nerehiny (Nerny), lay brothers, Quin, hanged; Philip Flasberry, hanged near Dublin; Francis Sullivan, priest, shot in a cave, Co. Kerry, December; William Hickey, priest, hanged;
• 1651: Dominicans: Terence Albert O'Brien, O.P., Bishop of Emly; John Wolfe, priest, hanged, Limerick; John O'Cuilin (Collins), priest, beheaded; William O'Connor, prior at Clonmel, beheaded, and Thomas O'Higgin, priest, hanged, Clonmel; Bernard O'Ferrall, priest, slain, his brother Laurence, priest, hanged, Longford; Vincent Gerald Dillon, chaplain to Irish troops in England, died in prison, York; Ambrose Æneas O'Cahill, priest, cut to pieces by cavalry, Cork; Donagh Dubh (Black) and James Moran, lay brothers; laymen: Louis O'Farrall, died in prison, Athlone; Charles O'Dowd, hanged; Donagh O'Brien, burned alive; Sir Patrick Purcell, Sir Geoffrey Galway, Thomas Strich, mayor, Dominic Fanning, ex-mayor, Daniel O'Higgin, hanged after surrender of Limerick; Henry O'Neill, Theobald de Burgo.
• 1652: Secular priests: Roger Ormilius (? Gormley) and Hugh Garrighy -- hanged, Co. Clare;
• 1652:Cornelius MacCarthy, Co. Kerry;
• 1652: Bernard Fitzpatrick, Ossory Diocese;
• 1652: Franciscans hanged: Eugene O'Cahan, guardian at Ennis, Sliabh Luachra, Anthony Broder, deacon, near Tuam, Bonaventure de Burgo, Nielan Locheran, priest, Derry.
• 1652: Anthony O'Ferrall, priest, Tulsk, John O'Ferrall; Edmund O'Bern, priest, O.P. -- beheaded after torture, Jamestown;
• 1652: Laymen hanged: Thaddæus O'Connor Sligo, Boyle; John O'Conor Kerry, Tralee; Thaddæus O'Conor of Bealnamelly in Connaught; Bernard McBriody; Edmund Butler, Dublin; Brigid D'Arcy, wife of Florence Fitzpatrick; Conn O'Rorke -- slain after quarter given.
• 1653: Dominicans: Thaddæus Moriarty, prior at Tralee, hanged, Killarney; Bernard O'Kelly, priest or lay brother, Galway; David Roche, priest, sold into slavery, St. Kitts; Honoria Burke and her maid, Honoria Magan, tertiaries, Burrishoole; Daniel Delany, P.P., Arklow, hanged, Gorey.
• 1654: Bernard Conney, O.S.F., died in Galway jail; Mary Roche, Viscountess Fermoy, Cork; William Tirry, priest, Augustinian hermit, probably in Co. Cork.
• 1655: Daniel O'Brien, dean of Ferns, Luke Bergin, O.Cist., and James Murchu -- hanged, 14 April.

[Mad Dawg]

Isn't this the same guy who thought marriage was like the relationship between Christ and the Church, and who told husbands to love their wives and to take it easy on the kids?

I think Paul's attitude is easy to over-simplify.

[OLD REGGIE]

I think Paul's attitude is easy to over-simplify.

Maybe. Maybe not. How about "woman are a necessary evil but they are still second class citizens."?

[Uncle Chip]

Given that the Albigenses taught that procreation was evil

And just how do you know that they taught this since all the Cathar documents and bibles were destroyed by the Crusaders???

Given the size of the Albigensi communities there in southern France, logic says that they must have been procreating quite well --- thank you.

And the hypocrisy of claiming concern for "procreation" and at the same time massacring innocent children with their mothers in the town of Beziers and elsewhere during the Crusade --- and many of those were Catholics who stood with the Albigensi rather than the Papal crusaders.

And this crusade was ordered by a man named "Innocent" who is still considered one of the RCC's finest.

[Mad Dawg]

I heard there were two tiers of Cathar, and the lower tier was allowed to stay married.

If we're going to be all scientific and everything about our history we can't discount EVERYTHING the Catholics say just because Catholics say it. Some of it might be true, if only by accident. Even Catholics can't lie ALL The time.

[Mad Dawg]

"woman are a necessary evil but they are still second class citizens."

You got a problem with that?

Even that, I think, is over simple. Don't forget Prisca. I don't think Paul would have considered her evil.

But even more to the purpose, our concern with equality is not something I think Paul considered the way we do. While husbands and wives are to be subject to one another, and in another place wives are to be subject to their husbands, I do not see where wives are to LOVE their husbands as husbands are to love their wives, as Christ loved the Church and gave himself ... and so forth.

I think our worries about equality and rights arise because of sin and because we have broken the laws so many times we cannot even recognize them any more. So there must be concern for "equality" or equity for the sake of a kind of worst case justice.

[Mad Dawg]

It’s really quite impressive how the only reliable history that survived the Catholic atrocities was history that makes the Catholic Church look bad. I guess were not only fiendishly clever and vicious, but also really dumb.

[x_plus_one]

Am I correct in believing you approve of killing these "dangerous" people in the name of God?

yes

Should all "heretics" be killed in the name of God?

Depends on what you mean by heretics.

There are approximately [(3-4) actually] 4-5 billion non Christians on earth. Certainly a great many of these peoples beliefs and practices are dangerous to Christianity. Should we kill them all and let God sort it out?

This is the on going question that we all ask ourselves and live out each and every day.

Gods will is for us all to recognize him as the supreme being. Allah had no son so he isn't Yahweh- the god of the jews and Christians. Buddah isn't a god and Vishnu and Brahma et al have long been recognized as flesh and blood. We have punted in order to "bring the world to christ". Hindus kill Christians, Muslims kill Christians.

Christians want to take the higher moral ground for the sake of peace and the easy way out but have to defend themselves, their right to exist and fight back. Sometimes, as when the muslims had taken most of Europe in the 1670's (Spain, Austria) the most extreme measures are all that work. Read up on how The Gates of Vienna were nearly breached and but for the bravery of a polish commoner as general all of Europe would have folded like a cheap deck of cards. We aren't taught the facts in school since they are too unpleasant to digest.

I do find it interesting that you would use probably the most unreliable "Encyclopedic" resource on the internet as the source of your apparent self-professed knowledge.

The Albigensian heresy is widely written about. Beziers is a famous tourist town for the French populace. Tales of buried treasure and mass executions lure the northern city dwellers to the sunny countryside of LAnguedoc. This region was once settled by muslims and was a historical source of CHristian religious aberations from day one. I don't need to cite my sources in order form replies. If you want sources or footnotes, find them yourself.

[x_plus_one]

Protestants never created an organization within the church to act as storm troopers whose sole mission was to exterminate other religions.

Au contraire, you speak without knowing and are too lazy to learn why. CHeck out the Orange order in Ireland, the protestant masonic hegemony against the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

If you are so ill informed about the facts then you should apologize for making rash statements.

[fortheDeclaration]

No, that is an absurd statement. Protestants never created an organization within the church to act as storm troopers whose sole mission was to exterminate other religions. As you know, the church in Rome did just that. The Reformation was fought with faith and Scripture. The counter-Reformation was fought with blood and deception.

Amen.

There were abuses by Protestants, since they held to a state-church system.

But the RCC with its Inquisitions and Crusades was in a category all by itself.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

you speak without knowing and are too lazy to learn why. CHeck out the Orange order in Ireland, the protestant masonic hegemony against the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

If you are so ill informed about the facts then you should apologize for making rash statements.

lol. "protestant masonic hegemony"???

The fact that all you have in support of your argument is personal attacks has been noted.

You need to study up on the Inquisition, the Crusades, the counter Reformation, the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre...

The list is long and bloody...and generally one-sided.

[OLD REGGIE]

You got a problem with that?

Well, I've been divorced for almost 35 years yet I still believe women are superior to men in most ways. I'd rank them right next to cats in the hierarchy of God's creatures. :-)

Don't forget Prisca.

Sure. He appreciated her maid service while he lived in her house for 18 months. (All above board mind you. Aquila was there. Besides, Paul had no interest in women except as servants and obedient creatures.)

Oh yes, he does make a passing reference to Phoebe, a Deaconness in her Church. Wanna bet Paul had no place in her appointment.