Rising Protestant tide sweeps Catholic Brazil

Washington Post ^ | May 3, 1977 | Todd Benson

[OLD REGGIE]

How would you know that? Did you keep getting materials for the Bishop’s annual appeal? (That’s the only way of knowing that I can think of). That’s not just a rhetorical question; I’m interested know how reliable the data are.

No matter where I moved it wasn't long before I began receiving material, including my $ envelopes, from the local parish. I believe a baptized Catholic remains on the census rolls until he dies or until he notifies the parish in writing that he has left the Church. (I am not stating this as fact. I simply feel that's the way it works.)

In my case it took a letter and I have received no material from the local parish for more than 8 years.

Frankly, I suspect the census of Protestants and Catholics is suspect because of the differing, and sometimes lax, methods of counting members.

Well, you sure seemed to be desperately holding onto the hope that the Catholic church is dying out in South America, and came back seeming bitterly defensive when I slammed the kooky churches of the Brazilian underclass.

Methinks you have a very wild imagination. Please show me where you got this idea.

[Quix]

Sounds like our perspectives on some Romanist and Orthy contentions about Scripture

[Quix]

Good one.

[OLD REGGIE]

as usual, you avoid the issue, the use of the word ‘catholic’ applies to the only, ONLY christian church in existance at the time......the the pope leading that church from rome.

The only problem is there was no such thing as Pope at that time, nor had Rome claimed Primacy. There were however, independent Churches not subject to Rome.

Catholic Encyclopedia - Clementines (Excerpt)

Another popular theory based upon the Clementines has been that it was the Epistle of Clement to James which originated the notion that St. Peter was the first Bishop of Rome. This has been asserted by no lesser authorities than Lightfoot, Salmon, and Bright, and it has been made an important point in the controversial work of the Rev. F. W. Puller, "Primitive Saints and the Roman See". It is acknowledged that in St. Cyprian's time (c. 250) it was universally believed that St. Peter was Bishop of Rome, and that he was looked upon as the type and origin of episcopacy. Modern criticism has long since put the letter of Clement too tate to allow this theory to be tenable, and now Waitz places it after 220, and Harnack after 260. We shall presently see that it probably belongs to the fourth century.

The "Old Catholic" Professor Langen in 1890 elaborated a new theory. Until the destruction of Jerusalem in 135, he says, that city was the centre of the Christian Church. A new pivot was then needed. The Church of the capital made a bold bid for the vacant post of pre-eminence. Shortly after 135 was published the original form of the Clementine romance. It was a Roman forgery, claiming for the Church of Peter the succession to a part of the headship of the Church of James. James indeed had been "bishop of bishops", and Peter's successor could not claim to be more than Peter was among the Apostles, primus inter pares. The Roman attempt was eventually successful, but not without a struggle. Cæsarea, the metropolis of Palestine. also claimed the succession to Jerusalem. The monument of this claim is H., a recension of the Roman work made at Cæsarea before the end of the second century in order to fight Rome with her own weapons. (The intention must be admitted to have been closely veiled.) In the beginning of the third century the metropolis of the Orient, Antioch, produced a new edition, R., claiming for that city the vacant primacy. Langen's view has found no adherents.

Catholic Encyclopedia - The Clementine Forgeries

[Clemenza]

Why would anyone willingly forsake their Mother - the Blessed Virgin Mary?

(Sniggers and laughs).

[Quix]

Seems true . . .

Hair trigger hyper-sensitivities tend to cultivate such fireworks responses, imho.

[dangus]

>> 1. Protestants don’t play the numbers propaganda war as much. <<

Well, OK, then... but, I did see this post as playing a bit of numbers propaganda, especially since the real news is that the tide is evening out.

>> Who said I ever went to Rentapriest? I didn’t say so nor did I go there. <<

Well, you commmended me to Rentapriest.com; I natch presumed you had been that site yourself. But I did mean the web site; I would doubt you’d have need to rent a priest, so I did presume your purpose was only to gain propaganda.

>> My whole point was it is foolish to grab a site which tickles your fancy and post it as the facts and nothing but the facts. <<

Tickles my fancy?? Facts??? I posted adherents.com, because their source was the official Catholic census, which HAD shown declining membership, and quit declining.

[dangus]

>> Either atheism began in Protestant nations or it began elsewhere. That is a pretty simple argument. No? <<

None of the so-called atheists the article refered to were atheists, though. The site didn’t provide the data you intended it to provide.

[dangus]

>> No matter where I moved it wasn’t long before I began receiving material, including my $ envelopes, from the local parish. I believe a baptized Catholic remains on the census rolls until he dies or until he notifies the parish in writing that he has left the Church. (I am not stating this as fact. I simply feel that’s the way it works.)
In my case it took a letter and I have received no material from the local parish for more than 8 years. Frankly, I suspect the census of Protestants and Catholics is suspect because of the differing, and sometimes lax, methods of counting members. <<

I can’t for the life of me understand how you could MOVE and be registered in your NEW parish without taking some action to become registered. Perhaps the diocese you were in figured you hadn’t meant to drop out of the church just because you moved, but I can’t believe they actually had you down as a member of a parish you never attended. BTW, it makes the parish look bad to claim you as a registered catholic, but to not receive any funds from you, not have you as a congregant, etc... it says to the bishop that they have failed to actvate a local Catholic... Or did you just move within the parish repeatedly?

>> Frankly, I suspect the census of Protestants and Catholics is suspect because of the differing, and sometimes lax, methods of counting members. <<

Yes, but the decline in offical records matched exactly the decline in the survey’s data, so if the Brazilian Catholic Church lags removing Catholics from their rolls, all that mean is that the turnaround happened even earlier. Which I highly doubt.

[OLD REGGIE]

I can’t for the life of me understand how you could MOVE and be registered in your NEW parish without taking some action to become registered.

Maybe I wasn't registered in the new parish but the $ envelopes sure followed me around. :-)

Yes, but the decline in offical records matched exactly the decline in the survey’s data, so if the Brazilian Catholic Church lags removing Catholics from their rolls, all that mean is that the turnaround happened even earlier.

Whatever makes you happy.

[OLD REGGIE]

None of the so-called atheists the article refered to were atheists, though. The site didn’t provide the data you intended it to provide.

From the link I provided:

India : Probably the first sign of skeptic thought comes from the Rig-Veda, a text which is thought to have been written around 1000 BC. The philosophy promoted in it could be said to be atheistic by omission, as shows us this creation hymn :

"Who knows for certain? Who shall here declare it? Whence was it born and whence came this creation? The gods were born after this world's creation. Then, who can know from whence it has arisen? None know whence creation has arisen and whether he has or has not produced it. He who surveys it in the highest heaven, he only knows, or happily, he may know not".

Around 500 BC, Buddhism, inspired by the Rig-Veda, became a theistic philosophy. Jainism, an atheistic religion, also began around that time.

Where were the Protestants? Nuff said.

[firebrand]

I feel sorry for these reporters who have to keep coming up with stories. Trying to give everything an edgy, controversial twist. If anyone ever talked about Christian unity . . . WHOA! Bummer!

[Quix]

Too true.

[freedomdefender]

May I ask, do you belong to one of the Texas Episcopal parishes that is joing up with the conservative Anglican network? If so, more power to you. As a conservative, cradle Episcopalian, I wish there were a conservative Episcopal church in my parts - I’d really like to be part of the Anglican communion, but all they have around here are Episcopal churches with lefty agendas.

[proud_2_B_texasgal]

May I ask, do you belong to one of the Texas Episcopal parishes that is joing up with the conservative Anglican network?

My husband was Episcopalian.. I never did join. We left our parish (which was pretty conservative as ECUSA parishes went)about a year ago ... FINALLY.

We don't have whole parishes leaving in our area like they have further north. Where are you? (you can email me if you want) .. there's got to be SOMETHING near you, huh? And if there isn't, there will be before long. They are planting churches somewhere every week!