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Christian Zionism
http://raptureready.com/featured/ice/ChristianZionism.html ^ | Undated | Thomas Ice

Posted on 03/08/2007 5:07:35 AM PST by Blogger

Christian Zionism

by Thomas Ice

And I will bless those who bless you,

And the one who curses you I will curse,

And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

- God to Abraham (Genesis 12:3)

The last couple of years the secular community and some in the religious community have woken up to the fact that most of the American Evangelical community is pro Israel. Guess what? They do not like it one bit. There have been a number of articles in the media about the alleged dangers of the Christian support for Israel. A widely noted article appeared in the May 23, 2002 issue of the Wall Street Journal entitled, " How Israel Became a Favorite Cause of Christian Right." For some, this is horrifying.

Current Christian Zionism

At the beginning of this article I have quoted Genesis 12:3, which is God' s promise to bless those who bless Abraham and his descendants (i.e., Israel). Does this promise still stand or has it been changed? If the Bible is to be taken literally and still applies to Israel and not the church, it should not be surprising to anyone that such a view leads one, such as myself, to Christian Zionism. Zionism is simply the desire for the Jewish people to occupy the land of Israel. Christian Zionists are Christians who advocate this belief.

Back in the spring of 1992, Christianity Today did a cover story on Christian Zionism. The article " For the Love of Zion" (March 9, 1992; pp. 46-50) reflected a generally negative tone toward Christian Zionists, which is normal for Christianity Today. They made the case that evangelical support for Israel is still strong but it has peaked and is declining. Yet, today, over a decade later the consensus appears to be that Christian Zionism is getting stronger, but so are those Christians who oppose it.

In February 2003, the Zionist Organization of America released extensive polling results from the polling firm of John McLaughlin and Associates indicating rising support by Americans of the modern state of Israel as against the Arab Palestinian state. 71% of Americans were opposed to creating a Palestinian state and by almost the same margin Americans oppose any support to the Palestinian Arabs. Much of this current support is surely generated by those who are classified as Christian Zionists.

Christian Anti-Zionists

Probably for the first time ever, an organized effort appears to be on the rise of Christians (many who are Evangelical) who are outspoken Anti-Zionists. Knox Theological Seminary, founded and headed by D. James Kennedy (interestingly Dr. Kennedy did not sign the document) has posted a document on their web site denouncing those who are supportive of the modern state of Israel as engaged in " a serious misreading of Holy Scripture." Oh really!

Stephen Sizer is writing a major new book against Christian Zionism. I guess we have gotten so bad that they believe one is necessary. It will be called Christian Zionism: Fueling the Arab-Israeli Conflict, due out in December 2003 from Intervarsity Press. Colin Chapman has written what amounts to an anti-Zionist book in Whose Promised Land? The Continuing Crisis Over Israel and Palestine, Baker, 2002. He attempts throughout his work to refute the biblical teaching about ethnic Israel' s right to the land of Israel.

Gary DeMar has for many years exhibited his anti-Zionism in the many incarnations of Last Days Madness (American Vision, 1999). pp. 407-23. In an appendix entitled " ' Anti-Semitism' and Eschatology," DeMar quotes from Assembly of God premillennialist, Dwight Wilson' s Armageddon Now!, (Baker, 1977) saying that premillennialism fostered anti-Semitism during the Holocaust. Both Wilson and DeMar have made a statement that is ridiculous and cannot be supported from the facts of history. DeMar says, " Wilson maintains that it was the premillennial view of a predicted Jewish persecution prior to the Second Coming that led to a ' hands off' policy when it came to speaking out against virulent ' anti-Semitism.' " [1]

Wilson and subsequently DeMar' s interpretation of the premillennial record on this matter is simply wrong. Instead, historian David Rausch is correct when he declared:

This theory of " Fundamentalist anti-Semitism" is not only biased- it is totally inaccurate. Fundamentalist Protestants are not historically anti-Semitic, nor are they anti-Semitic at the present time. In fact, Fundamentalism is itself a religious movement which grew out of a millennialism which was Zionist. Fundamentalists are ardent supporters of Israel and the Jewish heritage.[2]

Convoluted Calvinism

Calvinist DeMar must be desperate in his attempt to label dispensational premillennialists as anti-Semitic, that he would adopt and advocate Wilson' s Arminian logic in relationship to the sovereign decrees of God. Wilson' s interpretation that the premillennial belief in the certainty of the fulfillment of prophetic decrees from the Bible leads to fatalistic inactivity by its adherents is not only factually wrong, but would be rejected by DeMar as theologically wrong if he had applied his Calvinism to all issues involving the sovereignty of God and human responsibility.

DeMar does not believe, nor do I, that because God has decreed who will be saved and who will remain lost that the believer' s response should be fatalistic inactivity in regards to evangelism or any decreed fact of history. History shows that Calvinists have led the way in evangelistic concern and activity. History also shows that premillennialists have led the way in their support for the Jewish people and Israel, and have led Christian opposition to anti-Semitism, just as they are doing at the present time. If this were not the case then there would not be all the press about our love and support for Israel.

Hands Off

Wilson,[3] and therefore DeMar[4], made a number of mistakes in their characterization of premillennialists in regards to anti-Semitism. Wilson quotes a poem written by a premillennialist entitled " Hands Off" relating to anti-Semitism. The poem is saying that those who have persecuted the Jews would be better off keeping their hands off of God' s people because God will judge them for their sin. Wilson characterizes the poem as if the author was advocating a hands-off policy of Christians toward helping the downtrodden Jew. The actual viewpoint of the poem was telling people like Hitler to keep their hands off the Jews, not for Christians to be apathetic towards persecution in Europe.

Hands On

Contrary to the Wilson/DeMar viewpoint, Rausch argues that premillennialists were involved in fighting anti-Semitism and did not sit back and do nothing. Rausch cites example after example of American and European premillennialists warning against anti-Semitism in Europe (especially in Germany and Russia) during the many Prophetic Conferences convened between 1878 and 1918.[5] Rausch notes that American dispensationalist, Arno Gaebelein, a German immigrant, " castigated Gentile Christendom in his lectures and writings for its attacks on the Jew." [6] In 1895, Gaebelein, upon returning to the US from a trip to Germany, sadly stated,

It is only too true that Protestant Germany is Jew-hating, and we fear, from what we have seen and heard, that sooner or later there will come another disgraceful outbreak.[7]

The fact of the matter is that there were not too many premillennialists in Hitler' s Germany since most of Christianity in Germany at that time was of a liberal variety. In my entire life thus far I have never met or heard of a liberal who was premillennial. Much of the Christian resistance to Hitler came from those who also hid Jews and they were often premillennial. Joop Westerville, a leader in the underground was a Plymouth Brethren and has a prominent place in the Israeli memorial to the " Righteous of the Nations." Corrie Ten Boom' s family were premillennial and are synonymous in the minds of American evangelicals with activism on behalf of the Jews in WW II. Rausch has noted, " Contrary to popular opinion, this prophetic viewpoint (premillennialism) combated anti-Semitism and sought to reinstate the biblical promises that God had made to the Jewish people through Abraham- biblical promises that postmillennial Christendom had determined were null and void." [8]

Further Wilson Confusion

Wilson says that premillennialists like Gaebelein " seemed to provide legitimacy for the Nazi attitude" [9] because, on a few points, they were critical of some Jewish activities and because they did not believe that the anti-Semitic document The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was a forgery. Wilson portrays premillennialists as if belief that the Protocols were not forged was belief that they were true. Premillennialists like Gaebelein thoroughly disagreed with the anti-Semitic agenda of the Protocols, but Wilson does not bring this out. Premillennial criticism could not in any way be interpreted as anti-Semitic attitudes. Rausch, contra Wilson, has observed: " It was premillennial eschatology that led the early Fundamentalist to have a high view of Jewish history and Jewish heritage. Even in negative remarks, there is no malevolence toward the Jewish people because the Proto-Fundamentalist believed that all men were unworthy of God' s grace and that even the Proto-Fundamentalist was a sinner." [10]

Dispensationalist Love for Zion

I believe that it is safe to say that there has not been a group of Christians who have cared more for the Jewish people and their destiny than dispensationalists in the 2,000-year history of the church. Previous to the rise of dispensationalism, Christians did not seem to be able to acknowledge that God had a future plan of glory for national Israel, without at the same time making the church subordinate to Judaism.

J. N. Darby, the father of modern dispensationalism, developed his theology in the 1820s and 1830s by saying that God' s plan for history included two peoples, Israel and the church. Darby took the Old Testament literally and at face value so that he recognized Israel' s future destiny. At the same time, he took the New Testament and the church literally and at face value. Darby did not have to spiritualize either Israel or the church recognizing from the Bible two peoples of God. " J. N. Darby has testified that it was his coming to understand that ' there was still an economy to come, of His ordering; a state of things in no way established as yet' which compelled him to formulate his distinction between Israel and the church." [11] Because of the rise of the dispensational viewpoint " premillennialists were able to stress the evangelization of the Jews while at the same time they supported Jewish nationalistic aspirations." [12]

In fact, the heightened interest in dispensational evangelization of the Jews has been recently documented in a new study of the history of Jewish evangelism. Yaakov Ariel says,

The rise of the movement to evangelize the Jews in America also coincided with the rise of Zionism, the Jewish national movement that aimed at rebuilding Palestine as a Jewish center. The missionary community, like American dispensationalists in general, took a great deal of interest in the developments among the Jewish people. . . .

Perhaps not surprisingly, missionaries to the Jews were among the major propagators of the dispensationalist premillennialist belief. . . .

They condemned anti-Semitism and discrimination against Jews worldwide.[13]

William E. Blackstone

Dispensational theology explains why this form of premillennialism has been the most effective in evangelizing Jews, while at the same time standing with Jews in causes like Zionism. In fact, dispensationalists were the earliest advocates of Zionism, even before it began within the Jewish community. " Zionism humanly speaking owes its origin not primarily in the Jewish fold, but in the efforts of a Christian, one whom we all respect, and who has been a great friend of Jewish Missions, William E. Blackstone." [14] Benjamin Netanyahu also recognizes the early rise of Christian Zionism when he declared that it " antedates the modern Zionist movement by at least half a century." [15]

Blackstone' s contribution was acknowledged by the Jewish community in 1918 by Elisha M. Friedman, secretary of the University Zionist Society of New York, who said, " A well-known Christian layman, William E. Blackstone, antedated Theodor Herzl by five years in his advocacy of the re-establishment of a Jewish state." [16] Contrary to the image presented by DeMar and Wilson, Blackstone provides another example of premillennial " hands on" involvement in combating anti-Semitism. " After traveling to Europe, Egypt, and Palestine in 1888, Blackstone organized in Chicago in 1890 one of the first conferences between Christians and Jews. The Jews of Russia were being persecuted and William Blackstone felt that mere resolutions of sympathy were inadequate." [17]

Conclusion

In spite of our critics, who unjustly attempt to cast us in a bad light, dispensational premillennialism has always been the best friend the Jewish people have ever had within Christendom. For years many in Israel have recognized this. What is amazing is that in the last few years even the Orthodox community has come to realize that they have friends and supporters within the conservative Christian community. At the same time that we support Zion, dispensational premillennialists have been the leaders in evangelizing the Jewish community during the present church age. I believe that such support of Zion by Christians will continue to be the case from now throughout all eternity. Maranatha!

Endnotes

[1] Gary DeMar, Last Days Madness: Obsession of the Modern Church, (Power Springs, GA: American Vision, 1999), p. 413.

[2] David Rausch, Zionism within Early American Fundamentalism, 1878-1918, (New York: The Edwin Mellen Press, 1979), p. 2.

[3] Dwight Wilson, Armageddon Now! The Premillenarian Response to Russia and Israel Since 1917 (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1977), p. 96.

[4] Noted by DeMar, Last Days Madness, p. 413.

[5] Rausch, Zionism, pp. 79-133.

[6] Rausch, Zionism, p. 243.

[7] Rausch, Zionism, p. 241.

[8] David Rausch, The Middle East Maze (Chicago: Moody Press, 1991), p. 64

[9] Wilson, Armageddon Now, p. 97.

[10] Rausch, Zionism, p. 212.

[11] Floyd Elmore, " A Critical Examination of the Doctrine of the Two Peoples of God in John Nelson Darby," Th.D. Dissertation, Dallas Theological Seminary, 1990, p. 77.

[12] Timothy Webber, Living In The Shadow Of The Second Coming, (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1983), p. 141.

[13] Yaakov Ariel, Evangelizing the Chosen People: Missions to the Jews in America, 1880- 2000 (Chapel Hill, NC: The University of North Carolina Press, 2000, pp. 12, 13, 14.

[14] Elias Newman, cited by Rausch in Zionism, p. 269.

[15] Benjamin Netanyahu, A Place Among The Nations: Israel and the World (New York: Bantam, 1993), p 16.

[16] Rausch, Middle East Maze, p. 66.

[17] Rausch, Middle East Maze, p. 66.


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; History; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: dispensationalism; israel; zionism
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To: topcat54
It's not just me. It's the vast majority of Christ's Church for almost 2000 years. Not until a fellow named Darby came along around 1830 with some, uh, unique views on the Bible did a minority of a minority of Christians suddenly start to think this way.

I picked up a copy of Regnum Caelorum, Patterns of Millenial Thought in Early Christianity, to look into this. (Buy from one of the alternate Amazon vendors. It's way cheaper.).

I'm not too far into it, but it's clear from what I've read that the early church fathers, even the chiliasts, don't fit modern categories. And, millennial views were also tied in to their view of the intermediate state.

341 posted on 03/31/2007 7:22:20 PM PDT by Lee N. Field
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To: Quix
It's so simple, even He can understand it!


342 posted on 03/31/2007 7:23:04 PM PDT by Blogger
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To: Blogger
(not to mention historically incorrect in its assertion that Darby was the first to come up with all of this.)

Oh, yes. The "golden chain" of dispensationalists. See the Regnum Caelorum book on that.

343 posted on 03/31/2007 7:26:44 PM PDT by Lee N. Field
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To: topcat54; Cvengr; Blogger; Dr. Eckleburg
"Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." (Matt. 24:15,16)

It's all in the past, my friend."

Well let's see if it is all past. This is Daniel's prophecy.

Dan 9:25-27

1. Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

(Jerusalem was rebuilt under Ezra and Nehemiah. That part was accomplished)

2. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

(Jesus was crucified, buried, resurrected and ascended. that part is accomplished)

3. and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

(Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in 70 A.D.. That was accomplished)

4. and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

(Nothing about a flood or end of war desolations. Questionable whether this is accomplished)

5. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

(Now we start a new period. When did the prince make a covenant with many and what was the covenant? It had to be made after the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, 70 A.D., since that took place during the first 69 weeks and this is the next week. Not accomplished)

6. and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

(Since this takes place during the 70th week, it has to take place after Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed. Therefore, in order for the sacrifice and oblation to be offered the temple must have been rebuilt for he stands in the Holy place when he stops the offerings. This has not been accomplished)

7. and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(It is obvious that the consummation has not taken place yet)

Matt. 24:15,16 Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Just a reading of Daniel's prophecy in context and its progression demonstrates that the "'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" could not be satisfied by the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D. since it takes place after the destruction and in a rebuilt temple for the sacrifices to be stopped.

Further, Matt. 24:21 says "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." The Ben Kochba rebellion in 132 A.D. was much more destructive of life and property and the Holocaust was much more terrifying and destructive than the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D.. In fact, the destruction of Jerusalem had little effect on the church since Eusibious says they were warned and escaped the Romans. There is no evidence that the days were shortened or that there was a falling away (iniquity abounding and love of many growing cold)around 70 A.D. The evidence is is that the church grew strong during the persecution.

Daniel's seventieth week has yet to take place.

344 posted on 03/31/2007 7:27:20 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: Blogger; topcat54; 1000 silverlings; Lee N. Field
There are certain physical promises that were made to the physical offspring of Abraham. I believe that the Jews inherit both whereas the Christians inherit the spiritual blessing as well as whatever physical role Christ has for us to play.

In your scenario, you still have the Jews receiving more than Christians receive which is ludicrous.

A theology that is based on the destruction of two-thirds of the Jewish people is repugnant. Repent of it.

And thanks for all the OT verses. However, in the New Testament, God's predestining, perfect intent is clarified...

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." -- Hebrews 8:13

As God wills.

345 posted on 03/31/2007 7:28:06 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Blogger; Dr. Eckleburg; Lee N. Field; 1000 silverlings
There was a promise of Land in the covenant God made with Abraham. The promise was reiterated in the latter promise with Moses and others. Further MANY MANY MANY multiple verses in the Old Testament speak of Israel inheriting the promise of her land and inhabiting it for always - never to be plucked up again.

I'm just curious, do you ever read the NT looking for answers/insight into what the OT was all about?

Does the NT has any bearing on your eschatological views esp. wrt Israel?

Is it really possible to miss the point of Romans 9-11 wrt the remnant of Israel and this present age to the extent that you do?

Was Paul just blowing smoke when he wrote Galatians 3 and 4?

Was Jesus missing the point when He declared the new covenant in His blood was made with His sheep, the Church?

Aren't you concerns about using a term like "the gentile church" when there is no hint an any such creature in the Bible?

I find the way you dwell on the OT without almost any regard for the NT interpretation tedious and reckless, and very misleading. This is the fatal flaw of dispensationlist thought, i.e., seeing the Bible as basic discontinuity rather than as continuity wrt the people of God.

346 posted on 03/31/2007 7:34:03 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54
reckless

Exactly.

347 posted on 03/31/2007 7:39:04 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Quix
8 In the whole land," declares the LORD, "two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in it.9 This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.' "
God's Words. Not mine.

As to the Jews receiving more than we do, you are revealing your true objections which have a tinge of anti-semitism to them. These Jews that you say shouldn't receive more ARE Christians. They are also the physical descendants of Abraham. HOW DARE GOD actually fulfill His promises to the Joooz. How dare he give them the land that He promised them and draw out a remnant for Himself after they were such evil wicked people. Why, why, such an action would be absolutely... biblical!

Gee, I wasn't aware that Presbyterians used the Thomas Jefferson edition of the Bible. Learn something new every day.
348 posted on 03/31/2007 7:40:22 PM PDT by Blogger
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To: topcat54

I take the Bible as a unified whole. The New Testament is not more inspired than the Old. They are EQUALLY inspired and speak of one unified message to humanity.

Romans 9-11 are my favorite chapters in all of Scripture. You have missed the point of them, not myself.


349 posted on 03/31/2007 7:43:18 PM PDT by Blogger
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To: blue-duncan; Blogger; Dr. Eckleburg; 1000 silverlings; TomSmedley
Well let's see if it is all past. This is Daniel's prophecy.

As I pointed out, the phrase "abomination of desolation" and the way Jesus intended is very plain from Luke 21:20-22 and Matthew 24:15,16. (I notice you don't seem to like the parallel passage of Matthew 24 in Luke 21. I hope you're not one of those who believe Jesus are talking about two different events.)

Daniel 9 is interpreted in light on Matthew and Luke -- Jesus's words -- not vice versa. You cannot read Daniel in isolation, or say that Daniel trumps Olivet. "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies" really could not be any clearer, especially to 1st century Jews (the audience of the Olivet Discourse) when they saw the armies of Rome bearing down on the old Jerusalem in AD70 to destroy the temple leaving not one stone upon another.

You can deny the obvious, and try to make the OT in isolation trump the NT, but it really won't work, esp. among noble Bereans.

350 posted on 03/31/2007 7:44:31 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: Lee N. Field

See the Bible for reference.


351 posted on 03/31/2007 7:44:55 PM PDT by Blogger
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To: topcat54; blue-duncan

The Bereans embraced the Old Testament as Scripture. It is apparent that some on this thread would rather cut it out of their Bibles. Sorry. It don't work that way.


352 posted on 03/31/2007 7:46:46 PM PDT by Blogger
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To: Blogger; Dr. Eckleburg; 1000 silverlings; TomSmedley
All I'm saying is that you should read and quote from the NT more to help you come to a correct interpretation of all the OT prophecies. Otherwise you are certain to miss the mark (as you have).

If you see national Israel rather than Christ in the prophecies it is obvious that you have missed the truth.

353 posted on 03/31/2007 7:47:04 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
In your scenario, you still have the Jews receiving more than Christians receive which is ludicrous.

When you go there, you have all sorts of situations that you have to deal with, because the categories are fluid. It is possible to move from one category to another by conversion.

So, what happens if your basic heathen gentile converts and becomes a Jew. He gets in on the land promise, or no? He's not a descendant of Abraham. Ah, but he's now "grafted in" (where else do we see that language?). If we're grafted in to Judaism before we're grafted in to Christ, do we get more bennies? Council of Jerusalem -- you don't have to do that!

Suppose a Jew converts and becomes a Christian? Gets his piece of Caanan, and gets Raptured out in the nick of time? Or looses out on the land promise?

Suppose a Christian converts and becomes a Jew. Is he still under God's blessing? Let's put that one to St. Paul, see what he says.

This is all more complicated than it needs to be.

A theology that is based on the destruction of two-thirds of the Jewish people is repugnant. Repent of it.

I don't have as much of a problem with that. God has in times past severely winnowed Israel. "Only a remnant will be saved." The image is of a few olives on the top branches of a tree, or a pinch of Ezekiel's hair stuck in his robe pocket.

(I just hope this thread hasn't ballooned to 400+ posts by morning. Get some sleep, y'all. Church tomorrow.)

354 posted on 03/31/2007 7:49:54 PM PDT by Lee N. Field
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To: Blogger; topcat54; Lee N. Field; TomSmedley; 1000 silverlings
When did our relationship with God begin?

From before the foundation of the world.

And from before the foundation of the world, God predestined His children -- believing Jews in the Old Testament and believing Christians in the New Testament. But it was always Christ within which saved and saves anyone.

The elder serves the younger. The old covenant decayed and faded away, exactly as God ordained.

The New Covenant is now operating throughout all creation. One day in the future, Christ will come again to judge the quick and the dead. At that moment, history will cease. Until that time, the Gospel will continue to be preached to all nations and races and will profit all who have been given ears to hear it.

Dispensationalists have concocted a new vocabulary with terms like "dispensations" and "gentile church" and "church age" and "racial Israel."

The God News of the Gospel is much clearer than these distortions.

"That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." -- Romans 9:8

355 posted on 03/31/2007 7:57:11 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: topcat54; Blogger; Dr. Eckleburg; Alamo-Girl

"So, if we read these verses, not in isolation, but in the context of the rest of the Bible we will see the present reality of the King's reign in subduing the nations with the gospel. Those who will not yield will be broken. Not some day in the bye-and-bye, but even now"

I think you need to read the papers and look at the news. Just because all power is given to Jesus does not mean He is now exercising it. The rod of iron is not His righteousness or His tenderness. It is the symbol of His authority, His severity. What nations is He currently ruling with His "rod of iron"? Europe? the Middle East? Russia? China? Latin America? North America?

What nations is He now "breaking to pieces or "breaking to shivers" or "smiting"? These prophecies deal with nations, not individuals.


356 posted on 03/31/2007 8:08:54 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: topcat54; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan
Where you get your characterization of my view is a mystery to me. But, bottom line is, I refuse to throw away the Old Testament and have quoted from the New Testament. You ignore both.

In answer to this post, I originally pulled out several New Testament Scriptures which differentiate the future roles that the Jewish believers will play as opposed to the Gentile believers. I believe such a post would now be redundant and fall on deaf ears. So, the only NT Scripture you will get is the one you continuously ignore, and that is Romans 11. I'll even make it larger so that maybe by virtue of its boldness on the page it may sink in

25 So that you will not be conceited,brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: a partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in... 28 Regarding the gospel, they are enemies for your advantage, but regarding election, they are loved because of their forefathers, 29 since God's gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable.


357 posted on 03/31/2007 8:09:29 PM PDT by Blogger
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To: Blogger; topcat54; Lee N. Field; 1000 silverlings; TomSmedley
you are revealing your true objections which have a tinge of anti-semitism to them. These Jews that you say shouldn't receive more ARE Christians. They are also the physical descendants of Abraham. HOW DARE GOD actually fulfill His promises to the Joooz.

That is a despicable post, blogger.

It is repugnant of you to toss around such slurs.

Repent of it.

358 posted on 03/31/2007 8:09:45 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Blogger

You can use whatever point font you like, but Romans 11 says nothing about a pretend period of time after the rapture of the Church. I know cuz I've read it.


359 posted on 03/31/2007 8:11:19 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: blue-duncan

Wow. Jesus sure has a funny way of exercising His power to subdue the nations with the gospel if this is what we are NOW witnessing. Such a view is frightening, if this is all there is.


360 posted on 03/31/2007 8:12:34 PM PDT by Blogger
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