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To: NYer
The Bible, on the other hand, is. Neither the Supreme Court nor the World Series’ umpires have received a promise of special divine assistance. But the successors of the Apostles have. Speaking to Apostles, Jesus said “he who hears you, hears Me” (Lk 10:16). The Magisterium speaks with the authority of Christ, guided and empowered by the Spirit of Truth.

Jesus was speaking to at least the '70 others' he appointed to go out and preach the Kingdom of God was at hand...They were 'babes' according to Jesus...

There wasn't a Christian in the bunch...There was no gospel to preach...

In fact they are so interdependent that the New Testament itself calls the Church “the pillar and bulwark of the truth” (I Tm 3:15). Biblical authority and Church authority — you can’t have one without the other.

HOGWASH...

1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

You can't make the 'church' the pillar and ground of the truth in that verse if you even flip it upside down and read it backwards...

The pillar and ground of the truth in that verse is 'God'...And you guys want us to believe that the Holy Spirit is leading your Magisterium to all truth...I don't think so...

9 posted on 07/27/2006 2:29:42 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Iscool
You can't make the 'church' the pillar and ground of the truth in that verse if you even flip it upside down and read it backwards

The verse is ambiguous, I think. It reads (no punctuation in the original!) "... in the house of God to conduct oneself which is the assembly of God the living pillar and base of the truth."

Where do the commas go? "pillar and base of the truth" seems like it could be appositive either to "God the living" or to "assembly". But God is really not the pillar and base of the truth, he's the Father of truth and the author of truth. He doesn't merely support truth or uphold it; "his word is truth" according to his Son.

Hence the usual reading, which makes "pillar and base of the truth appositive to "church of the living God".

12 posted on 07/27/2006 3:07:30 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Iscool; Campion
The pillar and ground of the truth in that verse is 'God'...And you guys want us to believe that the Holy Spirit is leading your Magisterium to all truth...I don't think so...

Actually, the text doesn't allow this interpretation. "God" is in the genitive case, but "pillar" and "ground" are in the nominative:

quae est ecclesia Dei vivi, columna et firmamentum veritatis. - Vulgate

he^tis estin ekkle^sia theou zo^ntos, stulos kai hedraio^ma te^s ale^theias - Koine

But if "pillar and ground" were being used in apposition to "God," as you suggest, they'd be in the genitive. On the other hand, "church" is in the nominative. Therefore the grammatical reading is that the "church of the living God" is the "pillar and ground of the truth."

16 posted on 07/27/2006 4:29:34 PM PDT by gbcdoj (Destruction is thy own, O Israel; thy help is only in Me.)
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