History of the Reformation-How Christ restored the gospel to his church (Part 1)

Arlington Presbyterian Church ^ | October 31, 2004 | Tom Browning

[Salvation]

Another Lutheran pastor heads to Catholic Church

[Salvation]

It's not a laughing matter.

More people are searching out the
One
Holy
Catholic
Apostolic

Church -- the true Church! (And the only Church with the four marks of validity.)

BTW, we do pray for you.

[Campion]

"Time is short ... eternity is long." -- John Henry Cardinal Newman.

[Salvation]

Another Lutheran Convert -- now a bishop in the Catholic Church

[markomalley]

It seems to me that the secondary source you cited may have not had it quite right:

From the Eastern POV

A Brief Confession Before Father Confessors

From the Full Confession of St. Demetrius of Rostov

I confess to the Lord my God and before thee, venerable father, all my countless sins, committed by me unto this very day and hour, in deed, word and thought. I sin daily and hourly by mine ingratitude toward God for His great and countless blessings and benevolent providence over me, a sinner.

I have sinned through: idle talking, judging others, stubbornness, pride, hard-heartedness, envy, anger, slander, inattention, negligence concerning my salvation, carelessness, indifference, impertinence, irritability, despondency, rendering evil for evil, bitterness, disobedience, complaining, self-justification, contradicting others, self-will, being reproachful, gossiping, lying, light-mindedness, tempting others, self-love, ambition, gourmandizing, eating and drinking to excess, vanity, laziness, entertaining unclean thoughts, acquisitiveness, impure glances, absence from divine services because of laziness and carelessness, absent-mindedness at prayer both in church and at home; I have sinned in deed, word thought; in sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch and the rest of my mental and physical senses; of all my sins I repent and beg forgiveness.

(Here one should mention specifically any other sins which may be burdening the soul.)

I also repent and ask forgiveness for all those sins that I have not confessed because of their multitude and my forgetfulness.

Forgive and absolve me, venerable father, and bless me to commune of the holy and life-creating Mysteries of Christ unto the remission of sins and life everlasting.

From Orthodox Info (Russian Orthodox Cathedral of St. John the Baptist

Please note the bolded text. The penitent is confessing to God and to the priest. He then asks the priest for forgiveness and absolution.

Penances — Their Nature and Purpose

Penance is a form of discipline or a prohibition administered by the priest (in accordance with the canons or laws of the Church) to those repentant Christians for whom it is necessary, much as a doctor prescribes a suitable medicine or treatment. It is a form of treatment for a moral sickness. Examples of penances are: fasting over and above what is required of all Orthodox Christians, special prayers of repentance with prostrations, reading books which will help in overcoming one’s weakness, and the performance of’ good works.

From: A Catechism on Confession -- St Nicholas Russian Orthodox Church

---

From the Latin POV

Satisfaction

1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."

1460 The penance the confessor imposes must take into account the penitent's personal situation and must seek his spiritual good. It must correspond as far as possible with the gravity and nature of the sins committed. It can consist of prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service of neighbor, voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, and above all the patient acceptance of the cross we must bear. Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, "provided we suffer with him."

The satisfaction that we make for our sins, however, is not so much ours as though it were not done through Jesus Christ. We who can do nothing ourselves, as if just by ourselves, can do all things with the cooperation of "him who strengthens" us. Thus man has nothing of which to boast, but all our boasting is in Christ . . . in whom we make satisfaction by bringing forth "fruits that befit repentance." These fruits have their efficacy from him, by him they are offered to the Father, and through him they are accepted by the Father.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

Note the medicinal quality of penance in both Orthodox and Latin Christianity. And as was shown in the Orthodox instruction, above, the penitent is confessing both to God and to the priest, God's minister.

This is also reflective of the Christian view of the priest in the sacrament of penance:

1465 When he celebrates the sacrament of Penance, the priest is fulfilling the ministry of the Good Shepherd who seeks the lost sheep, of the Good Samaritan who binds up wounds, of the Father who awaits the prodigal son and welcomes him on his return, and of the just and impartial judge whose judgment is both just and merciful. the priest is the sign and the instrument of God's merciful love for the sinner.

1466 The confessor is not the master of God's forgiveness, but its servant. the minister of this sacrament should unite himself to the intention and charity of Christ. He should have a proven knowledge of Christian behavior, experience of human affairs, respect and sensitivity toward the one who has fallen; he must love the truth, be faithful to the Magisterium of the Church, and lead the penitent with patience toward healing and full maturity. He must pray and do penance for his penitent, entrusting him to the Lord's mercy.

More importantly, we have the Bible as the reference: And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matt 16:18-19)

And again, On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be with you." When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."(Jn 20:19-23)

I don't know why you have this visceral hatred of Christianity, but it doesn't serve you or the Body of Christ very well.

[GAB-1955]

I disagree strongly with the Roman position that the only true Church is the Catholic one; it is Christ's church, and it is united in faith in Christ as Saviour. Of course, the Catholic position is that we Protestants who truly believe are united with the Church spiritually; it's really a minor point.

The Protestant Reformation was necessary and vital. The doctrine of justification by faith alone needed to be preached. This is where the Catholic Church as a whole erred*; faith is the key to being imputed righteousness, as Genesis said of Abraham, and Paul points out in Romans and Galatians.

However, we Protestants must remember that Catholics also believe in the saving work of Christ, and Catholics are in the Body of Christ through faith, and the works of faith they perform are mistakenly seen as cooperation by the sinner for salvation. Only a person who has been touched by the Holy Spirit worries about salvation; and the Holy Spirit chooses whom He will, knowing who will respond to His call.

I pray that there be unity in the Church in the essentials, friendly debate on the non-essentials, and joint action against the God-deniers.

[AlbionGirl]

Ping.

[HarleyD]

There are few articles that I agree with 100%. I post articles because I think they're interesting whether I agree with them or not. However I see nothing substantially wrong with the author's historical perspective.

As far as whether penance was a "mistranslation of Scripture" I can't determine. According to Wikipedia the Eastern Orthodox position is different than Roman Catholic belief. I'm not an expert on penance history but I suspect changes in these beliefs occurred after the great schism of 10?? when the Orthodox broke away from Roman. If memory serves me correctly the primary issue of that schism was over authority.

It should be noted by having the Church absolves one's sins, the Church was setting itself up for abuse. The EO position wouldn't allow it. It should also be noted the purchasing of indulgents were later deemed wrong by the Catholic Church itself. So don't blame the author for reporting history.

I see a lot of Catholics out here complaining about the author's take on history. That is typical. If it doesn't come from an official Catholic source it must be bias.

[HarleyD]

There seems to be some confusion on the Eastern Orthodox belief in penance. Being Eastern Orthodox you are best to help us all understand if any differences exist and if Wipipedia is correct. Thanks.

[Salvation]

Unity will come. In fact -- it is already showing its face.

[HarleyD]

From Wikipedia-"Catholics believe that no priest, as an individual man, however pious or learned, has power to forgive sins. This power belongs to God alone; however, God can and does exercise it through the Catholic priesthood. Catholics believe God exercises the power of forgiveness by means of the sacrament of reconciliation."

jo kus-"Really? That's not what I've been told, nor do the Church Fathers agree with that idea."

From www.newadvent.org-"No Catholic believes that a priest simply as an individual man, however pious or learned, has power to forgive sins. This power belongs to God alone; but He can and does exercise it through the ministration of men."

Wikipedia definition is almost plagerism straight from the Catholic website. You must be reading the wrong Church Fathers. Here is what the Council of Trent canonized in 1551:

As a means of regaining grace and justice, penance was at all times necessary for those who had defiled their souls with any mortal sin. . . . Before the coming of Christ, penance was not a sacrament, nor is it since His coming a sacrament for those who are not baptized. But the Lord then principally instituted the Sacrament of Penance, when, being raised from the dead, he breathed upon His disciples saying: 'Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained' (John 20:22-23). By which action so signal and words so clear the consent of all the Fathers has ever understood that the power of forgiving and retaining sins was communicated to the Apostles and to their lawful successors, for the reconciling of the faithful who have fallen after Baptism. (Sess. XIV, c. i)

[A.A. Cunningham]

The doctrine of justification by faith alone

A man made doctrine; Luther added the word "alone" to his version of Romans 3:28, not found in Scripture.

[Campion]

It should be noted by having the Church absolves one's sins

??? The Wikipedia article you quoted said that it's not Catholic belief that "the Church absolves one's sins", didn't it?

the Church was setting itself up for abuse.

To what abuse are you referring?

It should also be noted the purchasing of indulgents were later deemed wrong by the Catholic Church itself.

You mean "indulgences". It was deemed wrong at the time. But what does that have to do with claiming that the sacrament of confession arose from a mistranslation of Scripture?

I think you're confused between the sacrament of penance or confession, on the one hand, and indulgences, on the other. They aren't connected, except that you have to confess your sins in a sacramental confession first in order to qualify for an indulgence.

IIRC, Luther had no problem with the sacrament of confession, although he said some things about the theology of the sacrament with which we'd disagree. Later Lutheran practice left confession behind. So don't blame the author for reporting history.

Can I blame him for twisting it?

[GAB-1955]

Hardly manmade if it can be backed up by other Scriptures, such as Genesis 12: "Abraham had faith, and his faith was accounted to him as righteousness." Habakkuk 2:4 notes "Behold the proud; His soul is not upright in him but the just shall live by his faith."

John 3:36 has our Lord saying, "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Even Romans 3:28 makes it clear, even without Luther's addition of "alone": "Therefore we conclude that no man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."

Paul goes on to scold the Colossian church: "Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as *though* living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations--'Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,' which all concern things which perish with the using--according to the commandments and doctrines of men?" (Colossians 2)

Paul's letter to the Galatians notes that Faith equals righteousness. Faith is the key; James, quite rightly, says works are the fruit of the key. Those whom the Holy Spirit have called to faith produce good works. But the works do no saving; Christ alone saves.

[jo kus]

You wrote...Catholics believe that no priest, as an individual man, however pious or learned, has power to forgive sins.

I responded and YOU sent me back the SAME quote! By which action so signal and words so clear the consent of all the Fathers has ever understood that the power of forgiving and retaining sins was communicated to the Apostles and to their lawful successors, for the reconciling of the faithful who have fallen after Baptism. (Sess. XIV, c. i)

Harley, how does your response back up your assertion that "Catholics believe that no priest...has the power to forgive sins"? By parroting me back Trent, you are merely explaining what I already said - that priests HAVE THE POWER TO FORGIVE SINS - GIVEN BY GOD!

Regards

[HarleyD]

The Wikipedia article you quoted said that it's not Catholic belief that "the Church absolves one's sins", didn't it?

The Wikipedia article stated "...God can and does exercise it [forgiveness of sin] through the Catholic priesthood." This is consistent with Trent.

"To what abuse are you referring?"

Selling indulgences

I think you're confused between...penance or confession, on the one hand, and indulgences, on the other. They aren't connected, except that you have to confess your sins in a sacramental confession first in order to qualify for an indulgence.

I'm not confused (at least not on this issue and perhaps the spelling). "Penance", imposed by the confessor when he gives absolution is an integral part of the Sacrament of Penance; an indulgence is extra-sacramental; it presupposes the effects obtained by confession, contrition, and sacramental satisfaction. It differs also from the penitential works undertaken of his own accord by the repentant sinner -- prayer, fasting, alms-giving.

"Luther had no problem with the sacrament of confession"

You guys complain when Luther disagree with you and praise him as an example of where he agrees. You're driving me crazy (and its a short drive).

[Kolokotronis]

"Being Eastern Orthodox you are best to help us all understand if any differences exist and if Wipipedia is correct. Thanks."

The Wikipedia article is "OK" with regard to Orthodox confession, though I can't address in any detail the part on Roman Catholic confession.

We go to confession usually to the same priest all the time. He is called our spiritual father. Confession takes place in front of the icon of Christ placed on a stand on the floor to the right of the Royal Doors in the iconostasion. We can confess kneeling or standing up and the priest places his epitrachelion over us as we confess. There is an opening prayer by the priest in which among other things we are reminded that we are confessing to Christ and that the priest is a witness for The Church. Usually the priest will then ask us what we have to confess though there is no set formula. We then confess our sins. Often the priest will ask some questions and/or direct that we refrain from or do certain things either as a penance for our sins or a particular sin or (or and/or) to strengthen us against sinning in the future. He then says the following prayer:

"May God who pardoned David through Nathan the prophet when he confessed his sins, and Peter weeping bitterly for his denial and the sinful woman weeping at His feet and the Publican and the Prodigal Son, may this same God forgive you all things through me a sinner both in this world and in the world to come, and set you uncondemned before His fearsome judgment seat. Having no further care for the sins which you have confessed, depart in peace.

The divine grace through my unworthiness has you released and forgiven of your sins. Amen."

As you can see, the process of the confession and the role of the priest is not really particularly different between Orthodoxy and the Latin Rite Church. You should note, however, that not all priests may hear confessions merely by virtue of their ordination. They must have received the offikion of confessor from their bishop before they can hear confessions. This is to assure spiritual maturity on the part of the priest which is particularly important since the spiritual father acts as a sort of "coach" for our spiritual advancement and the advice and counsel he might give, which can involve all aspects of life, must be sound and Orthodox. The one thing which might really be different between confession in the Orthodox Church and that in the Latin Rite Church is this spiritual father role which the priest plays. I often spend twice as much time with my sf discussing "where do I go from here" as I do actually making my confession.

All in all, I think the sacrament is the same in both Churches with the same theological underpinnings, notwithstanding that there may be some forms or customs which differ. Hope this helps.

[Kolokotronis]

Missed pinging you on #37. Sorry!

[HarleyD]

"...what I already said - that priests HAVE THE POWER TO FORGIVE SINS - GIVEN BY GOD!"

I believe we are talking pass one another. Yes I agree with you. The Roman Catholic Church doctrine believes the power to forgive sins rests within the Church.

[Pyro7480]

They must have received the offikion of confessor from their bishop before they can hear confessions. This is to assure spiritual maturity on the part of the priest which is particularly important since the spiritual father acts as a sort of "coach" for our spiritual advancement and the advice and counsel he might give, which can involve all aspects of life, must be sound and Orthodox.

Thanks for describing Eastern Christian confession to us. I really like the Orthodox concept of an office of Confessor. Lord knows there are too many Latin Catholic priests who just "go through the motions" with that sacrament.