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To: sinkspur
Typically, they ramp up the conversation to include ridicule of the Pope,

Typically they do nothing of the sort. They do criticize actions and statements of the pope that are apparently not consistent with Traditional Catholic teaching, and the more knowledgeable Catholics that do not agree actually try to engage the argument. Others just attack the Traditional Catholics claiming they have no right to criticize anything that the pope says or does. The only exception to this rule according to such persons is when the pope's personal opinions differ with that of US foreign policy, for example, then they can say "the pope is wrong."

... rejection of the validity of the Novus Ordo,

Typically not so, once again. They criticize the radical changes and radical departure from Tradition(and the ever more evolving changes)in the liturgy, the wisdom of such decisions, and the effects on the Church and on the beliefs of the faithful since the change.

and condemnation of the vast majority of Catholics who attend the Novus Ordo.

Um no. What you do see is rebuke of those who attempt to promote personal modernist agendas at odds with Traditional Catholic teaching, and those who present misinformation on what is Traditional Catholic teaching. These rebukes are "typically" done with rational argument, until the Traditional Catholic presenting the argument is "dismissed" with personal insult or slurs by those who disagree with what they say.

19 posted on 03/09/2005 7:19:49 AM PST by murphE (Each of the SSPX priests seems like a single facet on the gem that is the alter Christus. -Gerard. P)
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To: murphE
They do criticize actions and statements of the pope that are apparently not consistent with Traditional Catholic teaching, and the more knowledgeable Catholics that do not agree actually try to engage the argument.

"Apparently". I like that.

Why insert this word? There's no doubt in the Traditionalist mind that the Pope has departed from Catholic teaching is there? It's all black and white isn't it?

From my point of view, however, I'm glad that you did include it, because it strikes right to the heart of the problem. "Apparently" -from the same root as the word "appear"- means that "it appears to us", which is exactly what all your posturings amount to. You've simply made your own personal call on how the Pope is running the Church and elevated it to the level of infallibility.

Furthermore, let's not minimize what's happening here with euphemisms which attempt to paint a picture of studied and sporadic dissent from certain papal actions.

I see no admiration nor praise from your quarter for anything which the Pope does or says. The contestation is universal and continual. In addition, it's not just this Pope. Traditionalists have rejected wholesale, pope after pope, after pope. In toto. Your words in no way convey the scale of Traditionalist rejection of JPII or any of his predecessors.

It's a little late for playing the "we're all reasonable people" card.

Others just attack the Traditional Catholics claiming they have no right to criticize anything that the pope says or does.

It's not a question of having a "right" to criticise the Pope. It's a question of whether it's wise to do so. There are two virtues which guard against it and they are generally lacking from Traditionalist apologetics.


a)humility
b)prudence

Most reasonable people have some sort of awareness of their rightful place within the Mystical Body. For me, this means being aware that the Pope has a certain charism proper to his position with which I-as a humble pew dweller and the misunderstood "spirit of Vatican II notwithstanding"-am not endowed. This leads naturally to a certain respect for the holder of the Petrine office and a certain reserve when it comes to second guessing the works and teachings of its holder. The former has its roots in humility, the second in prudence.

Much as I might like to think that my opinion on how to approach relations with the Orthodox or Protestant Churches carries as much value as that of JPII, it doesn't. I have received no indication from the Holy Spirit, other than access to a computer and keyboard, that my opinions about Church governance count for diddly squat.

As for the whining "everyone attacks us Traditionalists" line, spare me.

You and yours may elevate disrespect for the papacy into a lifestyle and nobody is allowed to call you on it? You may criticize the Pope but nobody may criticize you?

That's a little unrealistic but totally in keeping with the pride which permeates your entire movement.

20 posted on 03/09/2005 9:20:51 AM PST by marshmallow
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