Thank you Mr Moderator!
alacarte - The scientific community rejects this notion of 'footprints,' where ID'ers do not.
JFK_Lib - The 'scientific community' rejects it due to ideology and philosophical choices but not due to scientific method. For example, the evidence continues to mount that the Shroud of Turin is in fact evidence of the Resurrection, and many scientists from all over the world are discovering more and more evidence to support this idea. They cannot prove the resurrection, but only that something supranatural is likely to have occured because of the nearly impossible evidence left, like the second image that has now been found on the back of the Shroud with no intervening change to the middle layers of fibers.
But the 'scientific community' continues to reject the Shroud as anything more than a hoax because their minds were made up before even looking at it. That is why the radio carbon datings that were done ona mended section of the Shroud were not double checked at the time. The scientists got the results that they expected and that was enough for them.
But the principles and methods of science do not dissallow supranatural events, it is merely limited from proving such. It is the philosophy of materialism that you slander the term 'science' with that is hostile to the supranatural.
Alacarte - What you call footprints, scientists simply call gaps in our current understanding.
JFK_Lib - YEs, and like the Big Bang theory, if such a footprint is discovered and proven then you will declare it to be completely natural. The Big Bang is a proven miracle in which the entire universe simply popped into existance in a moment, exactly as the Bible describes (God spoke) and completely contrary to atheisms favorit theory of a Steady State Universe. So materialists simply adopted the theory and totally ignore that a miracle has essentially been proven, and now come up with all manner of speculation that they know they cannot repeat in a lab to account for how this took place ina completely normal way. YEah, like universes just burst into existance every day of the week and you can buy a 'Big Bang' lab kit to verify it yourself! LOL!
The same thing is happening with the Shroud of Turin. Already some Brittish scientists are accepting it as a fact and are claiming that whatever happened there it was not a miracle but a natural event! LOL! On one level, of course it is true, as anything God wills is entirely natural as He is natures author in the first place.
Alacarte - For now it is fantasy, yes. It is possible unicorns and goblins exist too.
JFK_Lib - No, it is not possible as they are known to be fictitious in their conception as elements of childrens fairy tales, hahah. You confuse not only 'science' and 'materialism' but also apparently 'fantasy' and 'fiction'. I cannot remedy this for you over the internet, but perhaps you should read up on these topics.
Alacarte - Let me get this straight, leprechauns don't exist because most people agree they don't. But god does exist because most people agree he does? Then you wonder why you are shunned by scientists?
JFK_Lib - People agree that leprachauns do not exist as they were openly concieved as fantastic ideas, not related tot he real world - total fantasy like Tolkiens Noldor. But God was NEVER in this category, but instead has been feared and dreaded precisely because He was believed to be not only totally real but the Inventor of all that is real. Another dichotomy that seems to challenge your conceptual abilities.
Alacarte - It is unfortunate he gets treated that way. But given that he thinks they all deserve to burn in a lake of fire for eternity, it only seems fair.
JFK_Lib - And by what scientific method do you leap to that conclusion? First, I said he does not let his Christian faith be known to the other proffessoriate, so he is not enduring their persecution. Secondly, he believes in Universal Salvation (and I might agree with him on this) so even if it were known that he were Christian, it would warrant no such persecution and bigotry. They would just have to hate himfor no reason at all other than he affirms what they hope is not true.
Alacarte - Ok, your next 4 paragraphs are just a rant on how crappy europeans are, so I'm not going to respond to them.
JFK_Lib - So, without counting immigrants, which of Europes Western nations has a population growth over 3%? Any at all?
Europe is sick, its power is waning and ithas taken on the role of the old Ottoman Empire of 1900, the sick man of Europe is Western Europe and everyone outside of Europe (save places culturally tied to it like Canada and Australia) realize it is dying. That is why the muslims are so emboldened as the statistics show that they will dominate Europe by the end of this century and will be 90% of the poulation there by 2200.
What makes that a 'rant' to you is nothing more than the fact that you dont like it, or what?
Alacarte - I assume you mean secular humanism, I am proud to tell you those are my boys.
JFK_Lib - No, I mean secular supremacism, as that is all it is anymore. The popularity of men like Castro, Stalin and Mao shows any claim to 'humanism' to be a fatuous lie. It is 'Secular Supremacism' because that is the one guiding principle now; 'if it affirms secularity, then it may be right, but if denies sexularity then it is wrong.'
That's really all you materialists have left any more.
bumpagery
JFK_Lib - They cannot prove the resurrection, but only that something supranatural is likely to have occured because of the nearly impossible evidence left, like the second image that has now been found on the back of the Shroud with no intervening change to the middle layers of fibers.
Alacarte - The shroud is evidence of the ressurection? Good grief man! How exactly does some strange (to christians) old piece cloth provide evidence that a supernatural event occurred 2000 years ago? Wow. If your all powerful deity wanted us to know he existed, he would just do it. He wouldn't leave inane artifacts around for us to extrapolate from.
JFK_Lib - YEs, and like the Big Bang theory, if such a footprint is discovered and proven then you will declare it to be completely natural. The Big Bang is a proven miracle in which the entire universe simply popped into existance in a moment, exactly as the Bible describes (God spoke) and completely contrary to atheisms favorit theory of a Steady State Universe.
Alacarte - God spoke? The existence of the universe proves god, because god made the universe? In that case, I submit that I made the universe, so since the universe exists, I am the all powerful deity. Please send all your money to... Please tell me you understand why you get ridiculed by scientists?
JFK_Lib - No, it is not possible as they are known to be fictitious in their conception as elements of childrens fairy tales, hahah. You confuse not only 'science' and 'materialism' but also apparently 'fantasy' and 'fiction'. I cannot remedy this for you over the internet, but perhaps you should read up on these topics.
Alacarte - Your logic is really inconsistent. There was a time when people believed in witches and goblins. According to your logic then, since at one time they were commonly thought to exist, then they did exist. I presume then that they all died out from our non-belief?
JFK_Lib - People agree that leprachauns do not exist as they were openly concieved as fantastic ideas, not related tot he real world - total fantasy like Tolkiens Noldor. But God was NEVER in this category, but instead has been feared and dreaded precisely because He was believed to be not only totally real but the Inventor of all that is real. Another dichotomy that seems to challenge your conceptual abilities.
Alacarte - You are being terribly amusing now. So before the invention of christianity... let's choose greece. In ancient greece, everyone believed and feared the gods, does that mean that zeus and athena were real? But now they aren't? What of the other 6000 religions man has invented? Why is your god special?
You realize the mullahs in iran make the exact same arguments for their god? The universe exists, only some great power could have done it, therefore allah must exist. If you explain to me why you don't believe in other religion's gods, you'll understand why I don't believe in yours.
JFK_Lib - And by what scientific method do you leap to that conclusion? First, I said he does not let his Christian faith be known to the other proffessoriate, so he is not enduring their persecution. Secondly, he believes in Universal Salvation (and I might agree with him on this) so even if it were known that he were Christian, it would warrant no such persecution and bigotry. They would just have to hate himfor no reason at all other than he affirms what they hope is not true.
Alacarte - I'm not interested in debating theology with you. The christian religion has about a thousand different ways to get into heaven, depending on who you talk to. You'd think the almighty deity would have a better communications department.
JFK_Lib - So, without counting immigrants, which of Europes Western nations has a population growth over 3%? Any at all?
Alacarte - Since when is the ability to procreate a virtue? People in the third world spawn like rabbits, does that make them better than the west? Sheesh.
JFK_Lib - No, I mean secular supremacism, as that is all it is anymore. The popularity of men like Castro, Stalin and Mao shows any claim to 'humanism' to be a fatuous lie. It is 'Secular Supremacism' because that is the one guiding principle now; 'if it affirms secularity, then it may be right, but if denies sexularity then it is wrong.'
Alacarte - What do Castro, Stalin and Mao have to do with humanism? They were/are about as interested in humanistic values as the inquisition. Atheism is not a religion, bad people are bad people. We are all atheists when we are born. Religion is taught to us, just like any other social construct. If you had been born in Lebanon, you would likely be a muslim right now. Just because Stalin killed people and was an atheist is different from him killing people in the name of atheism. He was a fascist dictator (see the roman catholic church circa 500-1500). Besides, if the national religion has some culpability for atrocities committed by that country, the christian religion has no where to point fingers!
This conversation has deteriorated into what any real conversation about religion eventually does, philosophy. Things like: "The universe exists, therefore my god did it. If you can't prove I'm wrong, then I must be right."
As for science, religion needs to be kept where it belongs, in the realm of pointless philosophy. I was raised a christian and my parents are still christian. I know how powerful the brainwashing is, it took years to de-program myself.
People who challenge science the way you do frighten me. Science doesn't care about religion, so leave it alone. There is no 'conspiracy' against christianity among scientists. What you object to is that they refuse to tow your line and validate your beliefs.
This conversation has reached the point of "my invisible friend is real - no he's not." I'll read your reply, but won't post again, take care.