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To: wideawake
Jesus did not reject the oral Torah at all - he told the disciples that the Pharisaic teachers sat in Moses' seat and that their teaching should be observed.
You're kidding, right? Jesus heavily criticized the religious leaders of his day for substituting their own man-made rules for God's law.

Interestingly, that's still the main bone of contention between Catholics and Protestants. Both have invented man-made rules -- like Baptists demanding abstinence from wine or pretty much any Catholic doctrine developed after about 400 AD, like the perpetual virginity of Mary.


9 posted on 09/25/2003 9:43:07 AM PDT by DallasMike
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To: DallasMike
except that Baptist are not Protestants....
12 posted on 09/25/2003 9:58:51 AM PDT by reflecting
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To: DallasMike
You're kidding, right?

Sure. I'm always telling funny jokes about the God I worship.

Jesus heavily criticized the religious leaders of his day for substituting their own man-made rules for God's law.

Yet he also observed many of those same rules punctiliously and instructed the Apostles to follow them.

Interestingly, that's still the main bone of contention between Catholics and Protestants.

For Protestants perhaps. For Catholics the original matter of contention is ecclesiological.

Both have invented man-made rules -- like Baptists demanding abstinence from wine or pretty much any Catholic doctrine developed after about 400 AD, like the perpetual virginity of Mary.

(1) The doctrine of Our Lady's perpetual virginity isn't a "rule" - it's a teaching.

(2) The doctrine of Our Lady's perpetual virginity is well attested long before 400 A.D.

Our Lady was routinely described by St. Athanasius as "Ever-Virgin" in the 300s, for example.

It was a doctrine taken for granted by early Christians. So much so that St. Jerome in debating Helvidius in 383 on the matter informs Helvidius that the idea that Mary was not always a virgin is an innovation unheard of before.

16 posted on 09/25/2003 10:23:00 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: DallasMike
You're kidding, right?

Matthew 23:1-3

35 posted on 09/25/2003 11:06:43 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: DallasMike
You're kidding, right? Jesus heavily criticized the religious leaders of his day for substituting their own man-made rules for God's law.

Mark 7

5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?"
6 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

"This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men --the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do."
9 He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

Yeshua could be talking to the church, Christmas, Easter??

Tabernacles, Birth / Passover, The Crucifixion / First Fruits, Resurrection

And when Rabbi Sha'ul wrote to the Corinthians...

Colossians 2:16
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,

...he was writing to those who observe the Feasts of The LORD. Lev. 23

How many Christian holidays fall out on the 'new moon?'

And the Sabbath (The LORD's Day) is Saturday, not Sunday.

Read the Prodigal's Son, The older brother is Judaism, the younger Christianity.

43 posted on 09/25/2003 11:27:21 AM PDT by Jeremiah Jr (613)
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To: DallasMike
"or pretty much any Catholic doctrine developed after about 400 AD, like the perpetual virginity of Mary."

Your claim is dead wrong. Catholic doctrine is officially defined to clarify and canonize that which always was believed by the Church. The perpetual virginity of Mary, for example, was long established and believed before it became officially declared by the Church.

Old Testament 'type' of Mary, proclaiming Her perpetual virginity

(1). "This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut. (Ezekial 44:2)

Even an Apostle indicates Mary is immaculate and ever-virgin

(2). The Apostle St. Andrew, quoted by Abdias, expresses himself in these terms: "As the first Adam was made of the earth before it was cursed, so the second Adam was formed of a virgin earth which was never cursed" (Saint James the Great, and Saint Mark, in their liturgies - Abbe M. Orsini)

Early Church Fathers write that Mary was a perpetual virgin

(3)."But the Son of God has a Mother touched by no impurity, yet she, whom He is seen to have, had never been a bride" (Tertulian: Apology 21, 9 - circa 213 A.D.)

(4). "there is a very great difference between the rest of mortals and the Virgin, and that all she has in common with them is their nature, and not their sin". (Saint Cyprian, circa 286 A.D.)

(5). "For in thee, Lord, is no spot, nor any stain in Thy Mother" Saint Ephraem the Syrian, (A.D. 306 - A.D. 373)

(6)."You before God and the Word according to the flesh, preserving your virginity before childbirth, and a virgin after childbirth, and we have been reconciled with Christ God, your Son." Saint Ephraem the Syrian, (A.D. 306 - A.D. 373)

(7). "Mary (was) a bright and luminous stem, where there was never found the knot of original, or the bark of actual sin" (Saint Ambrose, circa 380 A.D.)

46 posted on 09/25/2003 11:40:16 AM PDT by TheCrusader
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To: DallasMike; wideawake
WA >> "Jesus did not reject the oral Torah at all - he told the disciples that the Pharisaic teachers sat in Moses' seat and that their teaching should be observed.

DM >> "You're kidding, right? Jesus heavily criticized the religious leaders of his day for substituting their own man-made rules for God's law.

Someone here, it seems, has read the Bible and someone has not. Those of us familiar with the Scriptures recognise the beginning of Matt 23 when we read it. Others, apparently, do not. I quote, for general edification and education:

Matthew 23
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

Jesus clearly recognizes that the Pharisees have legitimate teaching authority (indeed He gave it to them), but that they do not live according to their own teachings.

47 posted on 09/25/2003 11:41:48 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard
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