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To: elbucko
When one adds up all the "kills" the Germans claim, not just the ones listed, the total exceeds the number of the loss totals for all allied aircraft. I think the Krauts were counting their ammunition as "kills".

After the war, the Allied powers were very skeptical of the Luftwaffe's kill claims, until they saw their meticulous documentation and research. The RLM in Berlin were incredibly exacting in their records, as were their standards. Both the US and the British launched investigations into the Luftwaffe, not so much as out of a desire to prove or disprove the Luftwaffe aces claims, but to figure out how the Luftwaffe, outnumbered and outgunned still proved to be one of the most lethal and most highly organized fighting machines in history.

Both the Allied and the Axis pilots required either a witness and/or gun camera footage to claim a kill. Some of the more prolific aces (Hartman, Galland, Priller) had designated wingmen whose primary job it was to tally their leaders kills.

Moreover, the Luftwaffe initiated a stringent "point" system for their pilots. While the allies branded a pilot an "ace" after 5 kills, the Luftwaffe required many more times this number before the full "Experten" lable would be awarded. Please see LUFTWAFFE SCORE SYSTEM

The book The Luftwaffe Diaries was completed in the 1960's, and documented that the Luftwaffe was not only accurate in its claims of kills by its aces, it undercounted many claims. Moreover, the RLM in Berlin was more stringent in its criteria than either London or Washington.

In short---those Luftwaffe aces were not some figment of the Nazi propaganda machine. They were the real.

127 posted on 07/22/2003 12:50:36 AM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: SkyPilot
In short---those Luftwaffe aces were not some figment of the Nazi propaganda machine. They were the real.

With all due respect, the kill records of the German pilots were, in fact, exaggeration at best and propaganda at worst. The two links in your post even admit as much, as this quote from one of your sources elaborates:

"And so it goes. When British fighter pilots overclaim, their optimism is portrayed as laughable; but when German fighter pilots overclaim, Bekker wonders whether the British are telling the truth about their losses. Luftwaffe victories are the result of wonderful machines, courageous aircrews, and brilliant planning; but defeats are the fault of Hitler and Goering.
After a while this adolescent self-justification seems a bit tedious (and irritating, since many of Bekker's readers lack the background that would enable them to put it into perspective)."
[from "Luftwaffe Diaries"]

As for the "LUFTWAFFE SCORE SYSTEM" link in your post, it is merely more of the same unsubstantiated propaganda repeated on a web site originating in the Netherlands by a person born in 1971. The site is, "Dedicated to the Luftwaffe", and not likely to be an objective source of facts. Hardly irrefutable proof that the claims of the German pilots are more than propaganda being repeated anew by youthful admirers.

And finally, I know many WWII fighter pilots of both the Royal Air Force and the US Air Corps. I play the bagpipes and I am the "Piper" at the Eagle Squadron Reunions when held on the West Coast. I also play at the request of the RAF in So. Ca. In all candor when asked, many of them don't think the kill records of the Luftwaffe are true. However, some of these pilots add, that if some high scores (in the hundreds) are true, they are not "Air Combat Victories", but are simply murder.

137 posted on 07/23/2003 8:34:24 PM PDT by elbucko
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