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To: Thunder 6
You are correct, but a small point of clarification on this issue might be in order, especially in light of the astounding lack of factual information that has accompanied this debate over the last few years. I know that this isn't news to you, but might be helpful to others:

The 3d Bde, 2d Infantry Division was the first brigade to convert to the Stryker oganization. At the time of its conversion, it was organized as a tank heavy mech brigade, two M-1 Abrams equipped tank battalions, and one M-2 Bradley equipped mech battalions. Just prior to conversion, one of the tank battalions was exchanged for a light infantry battalion with the 1st Bde, 25th Infantry Division, now converting as Stryker Brigade #2. So, conversion of the first Stryker Brigade resulted in the loss of 44 M-1 tanks from the rolls of the Active Army (tank battalions are smaller these days). Conversion of the second Stryker Brigade (1/25 Inf Div) also resulted in a net loss of 44 M-1 tanks. Total = 88 M-1 tanks.

The remaining four brigades slated for conversion, including the 56th Bde, PA National Guard do not have any M-1 tank battalions assigned.

Bottom line is that we are beefing up the light force, not standing down the heavy force - at least for now. Objective Force will eventually replace the M-1 and M-2, but far down the road, as you point out.

I'm sure that the PM Abrams briefing on M-1 performance must have been shown at the Armor Conference. The Abrams tank held up very well. So did the Bradley. M113s, USMC AAV's, and LAV-25s did not fare so well. Stryker would have fallen somewhere in between, depending on whether it included applique armor. Heavy force still first choice in a real gunfight, but Stryker would have come in real handy in Northern Iraq to reinforce 173d Abn Bde. Big problems trying to get TF1-63 deployed and supported. I would have signed up for a Stryker Bde up there in a New York minute.

Full spectrum force for full spectrum missions - I hope people quit taking cheap shots at Shinseki and get on with making the Army more lethal, more deployable, and more sustainable. Appreciate your voice of reason in the midst of this babble.
20 posted on 05/31/2003 7:13:52 PM PDT by centurion316
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To: centurion316
Specific beefs about Stryker:

  1. It's still not heavy enough to survive. Look like a tank on the battlefield and people will shoot antitank weapons at you. If you're not wearing a tank, that's a very unpleasant feeling.
  2. It's mobility is a problem, both tactical and strategic. It's large and lots of 3rd World bridges and culverts will not hold it. And it needs a dedicated C-130 to move it. (Or a C-17, but the USAF is unenthusiastic about operating its -17s too close to the battle area. Since they too get budget and procurement cuts, which makes each unit more costly and more rare, you can't blame them). Where are we going to get the airplanes? Where are we going to get the airfields? The Air Mobility Command likes nice long and smooth runways, especially with heavy loads.
  3. It is essentially the LAV in Army drag, but the minute interservice differences cause it to be much more expensive (and heavier. See above about mobility). Why didn't TAMC work with the Marines to get a single compromise vehicle for economies of scale here?
  4. We are not sitting on Reagan-era budgets. Budget is a zero-sum game, and frankly, the USAF and Navy have had a better war than the Army's conventional ground forces.
Thanks again for your detailed clarification.

Full Spectrum Forces are indeed what the US needs. Full Spectrum on the widest possible view. Currently we have an Air Force, Naval Forces including a very capable Marine Corps (that was punished less than the other forces during the 90s drawdowns and Clinton/Aspin reorgs). In the Army, which is what I think we know best, we have forces from highly specialised intelligence gathering and special operations forces, to effective light infantry (yeah, you worried about the 173rd. Were they ever really threatened? Remember, we have air), to the mailed fist of our tank/mech forces. (There was an American general in WWII who said, "when Hitler put his war on wheels, he sent it right up our alley.") We also have a whole division that is organised as a heliborne unit. Where does the Stryker unit fit in all of this? It sits uneasily in between the light infantry unit and the heavy mech unit. And it costs money we haven't got.

As far as reinforcing the 173rd with a Stryker Brigade, where are you going to get the airlift, even if you had the brigade in your pocket? If the Army passed on the Stryker procurement and sank the whole amount into C-17 procurement, that would give the ARMY more power by giving it more strategic and operational mobility. Air flow was our biggest problem in Stan, and I'm hearing it was/is a problem in Iraq as well. More strategic airlift would answer two legs of your future-army triad: moe deployable and more sustainable.

Have you ever considered that general Shinseki has earned many of the "cheap shots" aimed at him? Part of it is his personal style. He's not exactly a consensus builder, is he? And part of it is the professional manifestations of that same personal arrogance. I'll not forget his attempts to undermine and embarrass the civilian leadership of the Department in the days before Iraq kicked off. I also was witness to some of his machinations in the Crusader debate. First, in his attempt to lobby Congress, he crossed the line, and then pushed a subordinate onto his sword over that. We all know where the buck really stopped on that one, and his not owning up to it gives a moment of clear insight into his character. Then, when he was embarrassed over the question of artillery in Afghanistan, he threw a small fit -- ever since, there has been an artillery unit sitting on its hands in Afghanistan. Neither the military situation nor the terrain allow any role for artillery. But this unit has to be supplied, etc., and amounts to "useless mouths to feed" in theater. They're there to soothe the ego of a vain and weak man -- no more, no less.

Twenty years from now, he will probably only be remembered as the guy that put the spoons in berets. Even in that, what he did was a Clintonian diversionary strike: by firing the beret fait accompli out over the heads of the audience at AUSA, he diverted the Army down that rathole and cut off debate on his transformation agenda. It was cunning. It was effective. It was underhanded. It was Eric K. Shinseki at his best.

I give Shinseki credit for outstanding combat service. I give him credit for transformation, which was a Big Idea (but I'm a little cynical, haing soldiered through many other Chiefs' Big Ideas... Remember "Army of Excellence?" How about "No More Task Force Smiths?" Let's see... "Airland Battle?" If you look at history books you'll see more examples, like the "Pentomic Division"). We'll be seeing more of him, because Daniel Inouye (another decorated combat veteran, although I have to say his medal-lobbying was kind of unseemly) is retiring, and Eric K. Shinseki, D-HI, will be taking his place in the Senate. (There'll be an election, but in Hawaii it's just a formality). You'll have plenty of years to judge whether I called his character correctly.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

31 posted on 06/01/2003 7:59:01 AM PDT by Criminal Number 18F
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