Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

My Plea For the Old Sword
My Plea For The Old Sword book online ^ | 1997 | Ian Paisley

Posted on 04/19/2003 5:47:25 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 361-380381-400401-420421-436 last
To: DouglasKC; Jael; editor-surveyor
That's fine. I will place my confidence in the original inspired scripture, historical fact, and the overwhelming majority of translators and not just in a very few men. :-)

I see three major translations having Easter,(with the Geneva shifting back and forth).

That Pascha could be translated as Easter is thus, established based on the then current usage and the modern usage of the term in Greek today.

421 posted on 04/28/2003 1:32:21 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 416 | View Replies]

To: fortheDeclaration
Yet, the final fact remains that the word could be translated as Easter and it not be a mistake. It would be a choice on the part of the translator to choose which word he figured would communicate the meaning of Pascha to the reader.

Okay, this is from "Adam Clarkes Commentary on the Bible" concerning Acts 12:4. It's a little tough to follow but I'll summarize afterwards:

"Perhaps there never was a more unhappy, not to say absurd, translation than that in our text. But, before I come to explain the word, it is necessary to observe that our term called Easter is not exactly the same with the Jewish passover."

"This festival is always held on the fourteenth day of the first vernal full moon; but the Easter of the Christians, never till the next Sabbath after said full moon; and, to avoid all conformity with the Jews in this matter, if the fourteenth day of the first vernal full moon happen on a Sabbath, then the festival of Easter is deferred till the Sabbath following. The first vernal moon is that whose fourteenth day is either on the day of the vernal equinox, or the next fourteenth day after it. The vernal equinox, according to a decree of the council of Nice, is fixed to the 21st day of March; and therefore the first vernal moon is that whose fourteenth day falls upon the 21st of March, or the first fourteenth day after. Hence it appears that the next Sabbath after the fourteenth day of the vernal moon, which is called the Paschal term, is always Easter day. And, therefore, the earliest Paschal term being the 21st of March, the 22d of March is the earliest Easter possible; and the 18th of April being the latest Paschal term, the seventh day after, that is the 25th of April, is the latest Easter possible."

"The term Easter, inserted here by our translators, they borrowed from the ancient Anglo-Saxon service-books, or from this version of the Gospels, which always translates the Greek by this term; e.g.

Mat_26:2 : Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover.
Wite ye that aefter twam dagum beoth Eastro.

Mat_26:19 : And they made ready the passover.
And hig gegearwodon hym Easter thenunga (i.e. the paschal supper.) Prefixed to Mat_28:1, are these words: This part to be read on Easter even.

And, before Mat_28:8, these words:

Mar_14:12 : And the first day of unleavened bread when they killed the passover.
And tham forman daegeazimorum, tha hi Eastron offrodon.

Other examples occur in this version. Wiclif used the word paske, i.e. passover; but Tindal, Coverdale, Becke, and Cardmarden, following the old Saxon mode of translation, insert Easter: the Geneva Bible very properly renders it the passover.

The Saxon Earten, Eartne, Eartno, Eartna, and Eartnon are different modes of spelling the name of the goddess Easter, whose festival was celebrated by our pagan forefathers on the month of April; hence that month, in the Saxon calendar, is called Easter month.

Every view we can take of this subject shows the gross impropriety of retaining a name every way exceptionable, and palpably absurd."

************************************

Okay, now for the summary. What Clarke is saying is that there were Anglo-Saxon copies of the gospel floating around long before Wycliffe, Tindale and the others did their translations.

I researched this on the internet and it's certainly true. Here's good website that goes into these gospels somewhat.

The point is that these Anglo-Saxon gospels used different spellings for the Goddess Easter. "Easter" named after the Goddess, is the Anglo-Saxon equivelent of our April.

So the Anglo-Saxons used the name of the month in which they THOUGHT this occurred in the gospels.

So the bottom line is that THERE was NO month called "Easter" in Jerusalem or in Israel. It was part of the Anglo-Saxon calendar. It was not part of the Roman or the Jewish calendar. Therefore to translate "pascha" as "Easter" in the year 1611 was a mistake. It was either just plain sloppy scholarship on their part or a deliberate insertion to justify Easter. We know that the Geneva bible in 1580 tranlated it "Passover" so the correct word was certainly used and known. We also know Wycliffe's 1382 English version deliberately did not use the term "Easter", indicating that he understood the distinction.

*******************************

Anyways I'm about studied out on this topic now. It has been an interesting discussion and study and I thank you for that. :-)

422 posted on 04/28/2003 8:06:28 PM PDT by DouglasKC
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 419 | View Replies]

To: fortheDeclaration
I am Catholic, you are insulting and wrong. If the KGV is so great then explain why Prots threw out so much of the Bible when they formed their own church. "You are Peter..." means nothing to you I guess. Call me a child molester again and I report your bigoted self to the moderators.
423 posted on 04/28/2003 8:24:24 PM PDT by Lee Enfield ( Doing it in your name anyway.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: Lee Enfield
I am Catholic, you are insulting and wrong. If the KGV is so great then explain why Prots threw out so much of the Bible when they formed their own church.

The 'Protestants' did not throw out so much of the Bible, they rejected the portions that were non-Canonical.

Many Catholics themselves saw them also as non-Canonical, including Jerome.

"You are Peter..." means nothing to you I guess.

And I guess, 'upon no other foundation can no man lay then that is laid,which is Jesus Christ (1Cor.3:11) doesn't mean anything to you.

Call me a child molester again and I report your bigoted self to the moderators.

And when did I call you a child molester.

So, you do not have a child molester problem in the Priesthood?

424 posted on 04/28/2003 10:04:05 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 423 | View Replies]

To: DouglasKC; Jael; editor-surveyor
Okay, now for the summary. What Clarke is saying is that there were Anglo-Saxon copies of the gospel floating around long before Wycliffe, Tindale and the others did their translations. I researched this on the internet and it's certainly true. Here's good website that goes into these gospels somewhat. The point is that these Anglo-Saxon gospels used different spellings for the Goddess Easter. "Easter" named after the Goddess, is the Anglo-Saxon equivelent of our April. So the Anglo-Saxons used the name of the month in which they THOUGHT this occurred in the gospels. So the bottom line is that THERE was NO month called "Easter" in Jerusalem or in Israel. It was part of the Anglo-Saxon calendar.

Who thought 'Easter' was a month?

As for the 'Anglo-Saxon issue, what of Luther and his use of the word in his translation?

It was not part of the Roman or the Jewish calendar. Therefore to translate "pascha" as "Easter" in the year 1611 was a mistake. It was either just plain sloppy scholarship on their part or a deliberate insertion to justify Easter. We know that the Geneva bible in 1580 tranlated it "Passover" so the correct word was certainly used and known.

The Geneva first translated it as Easter and then in its later edition (1599) it was switched to passover.

Now, Tyndale,who coined the phrase Passover very well knew what pascha meant and used Easter throughout his translation.

We also know Wycliffe's 1382 English version deliberately did not use the term "Easter", indicating that he understood the distinction.

All Wyclif did was stay with the Latin and transliterate the word 'pascha'.

Let us consider the meaning of the word Easter. The Oxford English Dictionary gives as it first definition of Easter the following definition: "one of the great festivals of the Christian church, commemorating the resurrection of Christ and corresponding to the Jewish Passover, the name of which bears in most of the European languages. Notice that it corresponds to the Passover. But there is more. The second definition is even more telling. It simply says 'The Jewish passover Obs. Ofcourse 'obs' means obsolete; that is it is not commonly used this way today but there was a time when it was. As proof of this definition of Easter, it then gives quotes from the years 971, c.1,000,1398,1535,1563, and 1611. The 1611 quotation is taken from Acts.12:4 in the King James Bible. Even more telling is the quotation from 1535. It is taken from Coverdale's Bible in Ezekiel 45:21 "upon the 14th day of the first month ye shall keep Easter (spelling modernized). Easter was considered the correct name for the Passover in 1535. (David Regan at www.learnthebible.org)

Finally, a modern version, the King James 21 has Easter in Acts.12:4.

Thus,using 'Easter' for pascha is not a mistake when Tyndale uses it and the King James uses Passover and when the King James uses Easter and other translations use Passover (like the 1599 Geneva).

Both are acceptable translations of that Greek word.

Thank you for your discussion.

425 posted on 04/28/2003 10:38:44 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 422 | View Replies]

To: DouglasKC
<< I will place my confidence in the original inspired scripture >>

You have the original inspired scripture?

I'll give you as much money as you want for it - name your price. The only stipulation is that if it's really not the original inspired scripture, you give me double the money back.

Deal?
426 posted on 04/29/2003 4:12:30 AM PDT by Con X-Poser
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 416 | View Replies]

To: fortheDeclaration
<< The 'Protestants' did not throw out so much of the Bible, they rejected the portions that were non-Canonical.
Many Catholics themselves saw them also as non-Canonical, including Jerome. >>

Not only including Jerome - but including Jesus Christ Himself!

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the LAW of Moses, and in the PROPHETS, and in the PSALMS, concerning me.

In this verse, Jesus Christ Himself, reveals the three divisions of the Old Testament. They are the Law (also called the Pentateuch), the Prophets (including the historical books), and the Psalms (also called the writings). They are alternately known in the Jewish Masoretic Old Testament as the Torah, the Nevi'im, and the Kethuvim.

Every book in the Masoretic OT, and the KJV OT, fits into one of those three divisions.

http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm

TORAH (The Law):

· Bereishith (In the beginning...) (Genesis)
· Shemoth (The names...) (Exodus)
· Vayiqra (And He called...) (Leviticus)
· Bamidbar (In the wilderness...) (Numbers)
· Devarim (The words...) (Deuteronomy)

NEVI'IM (The Prophets):

· Yehoshua (Joshua)
· Shoftim (Judges)
· Shmuel (I & II Samuel)
· Melakhim (I & II Kings)
· Yeshayah (Isaiah)
· Yirmyah (Jeremiah)
· Yechezqel (Ezekiel)
· The Twelve (treated as one book)
· Hoshea (Hosea)
· Yoel (Joel)
· Amos
· Ovadyah (Obadiah)
· Yonah (Jonah)
· Mikhah (Micah)
· Nachum
· Chavaqquq (Habbakkuk)
· Tzefanyah (Zephaniah)
· Chaggai
· Zekharyah (Zechariah)
· Malakhi

KETHUVIM (The Psalms or Writings):

· Tehillim (Psalms)
· Mishlei (Proverbs)
· Iyov (Job)
· Shir Ha-Shirim (Song of Songs)
· Ruth
· Eikhah (Lamentations)
· Qoheleth (the author's name) (Ecclesiastes)
· Esther
· Daniel
· Ezra & Nechemyah (Nehemiah) (treated as one book)
· Divrei Ha-Yamim (The words of the days) (I & II Chronicles)

There are a few books missing from this list - the APOCRYPHA. The apocryphal books were not considered to be part of Jewish scripture, nor are they part of the KJV OT. They were not considered OT scripture according to Jesus Christ Himself, when He gave the standard divisions in Luke 24:44. In order to accept the apocrypha, one must disagree with the traditional Jewish Old Testament, the King James Bible, and Jesus Christ.
427 posted on 04/29/2003 4:18:56 AM PDT by Con X-Poser
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 424 | View Replies]

To: fortheDeclaration
<< Now, Tyndale,who coined the phrase Passover very well knew what pascha meant and used Easter throughout his translation. >>

The fact that the man who originated the term "passover", used 'easter' instead of his own term, should settle the matter for anyone who has the spiritual discernment God gave lime jello (which does register brain waves on an EEG according to "Ripley's Believe it or Not".)

Dr. Thomas Holland:

I am half Greek. My family wishes each other "kalee pascha" each year. They
do not mean "good Passover" which is the literal wording. Instead, they are
saying "happy Easter."

The English word "Easter" means "passover" according to the Oxford English
Dictionary. Therefore, it is correct. Also, the Greek words using "pascha"
in them have been used throughout church history to mean "Easter" in one
form or another. The truth is that the Greek word "pascha" means more than
the Jewish passover. Instead, it can refer to the season and any holiday
found within that season.

In the OT the days of unleavened bread follow Passover (Exodus 12:1-8, 15,
19; 13:7; Leviticus 2:11; and Deuteronomy 16:4). Yet here the days of
unleavened bread occur in Acts 12:3. This is then followed by "pascha"
which suggests that this is not the Jewish passover but a different feast
during the Passover season. The original use of "Easter" was a celebration
of the pagan feast of Ostara (later pronounced "Easter"). Herod would have
celebrated the Roman feast since he was a puppet of Rome. If you are
interested, I have more information on this in my online Manuscript
Evidence lessons concerning translational considerations.
428 posted on 04/29/2003 4:25:04 AM PDT by Con X-Poser
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 425 | View Replies]

To: Con X-Poser
Not only including Jerome - but including Jesus Christ Himself!

Amen!

429 posted on 04/29/2003 4:55:24 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 427 | View Replies]

To: Con X-Poser; Jael; editor-surveyor
Looking at the OED it states under the definition of Easter the following, Greek pascha,

Also, it states that in ordinary language Easter is often applied to the entire week commencing with Easter Sunday.

It would seem that the King James translators were trying to point out the fact the planned execution was to be at the end of the week of unleavened bread (also called Passover), rather then on Passover day itself.

430 posted on 04/29/2003 5:06:34 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 428 | View Replies]

To: Con X-Poser
This is simply heresy. The flood was world-wide. God promised never to flood the earth like that again - and we've had LOTS of local floods, some very large and devastating.

None that threatened anywhere close to the majority of living humans on earth, let alone all but eight in a boat. That's the crucial difference.

431 posted on 04/29/2003 6:30:38 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 392 | View Replies]

To: fortheDeclaration
You may recall you made the blanket innuendo

"Well, we all know what the RC does with children under its care don't we?"

One could with equal accuracy say that about the Baptist church, the Presbyterian church, the Methodist church. Statistics show the incidence of child abuse by clergy doesn't vary by much among major denominations and religions. The RCC catches more heat about this (and I think rightly) because of its heavily authoritarian structure. The analogy would be that of a police state: you at least expect to see less crime. It's like it's a police state but the police are sleeping.

432 posted on 04/29/2003 6:38:19 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 424 | View Replies]

Comment #433 Removed by Moderator

Comment #434 Removed by Moderator

To: HiTech RedNeck
You may recall you made the blanket innuendo "Well, we all know what the RC does with children under its care don't we?"

What is 'innuendo' about it?

Just read the headlines.

As for other 'denominations' I do not see any thing like child molestation being involved in them

Nor, would any of those denominations even attempt to do what the RC did, a massive cover-up and stall to prevent conviction of those fiends.

Ofcourse, that the RC would be more concerned with its own power and money, then the welfare of its 'flock' is well to me just 'shocking'!

435 posted on 04/30/2003 1:43:55 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 432 | View Replies]

To: HiTech RedNeck
P.S. Yes this is crude!!! But I think it makes the point nicely...

And the point was?

436 posted on 04/30/2003 1:44:58 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 434 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 361-380381-400401-420421-436 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson