The Pinta, Santa Maria And A Chinese Junk? (More)

Christian Science Moniter ^ | 1-29-2003 | Amanda Paulson

[blam]

The Penon III skull found in central Mexico is 12,700 years old. It is of the Ainu variety. (Kennewick Man family)

Anthropologists have found remains of one modern narrow-headed population, the Pericus, that lived in Baja California, until going extinct in the 18th century. Discover Magazine

[Jimmy Valentine]

Pish Tush! Everyone knows that St. Brendan and his monks sailed to America in a coracle long before Columbus, the Chinese or what ever.

[blam]

Scientist: Oldest American skull found

By Jeordan Legon CNN
Wednesday, December 4, 2002 Posted: 7:56 AM EST (1256 GMT)

The "Peñon Woman III" skull was found near Mexico City International Airport.

(CNN) -- Researchers said it may be the oldest skull ever found in the Americas: an elongated-faced woman who died about 13,000 years ago.

But perhaps more significant than the age, researchers said, is that the skull and other bones were found while a well was being dug near Mexico City International Airport. Because the remains were discovered outside the United States, scientists will be able to study the DNA and structure of the skeleton without the objection of Native American groups, who can claim and rebury ancestral remains under a 1990 U.S. law.

"Here Mexico is providing the opportunity to see what clues these bones can yield about man's arrival in the American continent," Mexican anthropologist Jose Concepcion Jimenez Lopez said.

The oldest skull up to now, believed to be that of "Buhl Woman," was found in 1989 at a gravel quarry in Idaho. Scientists said it dates back 10,500 to 11,000 years. But researchers scarcely studied those bones before the Shoshone-Bannock tribe claimed and reburied them.

The "Peñon Woman III" -- which scientists believe is now the oldest skull from the New World -- has been sitting in Mexico City's National Museum of Anthropology since 1959.

At the insistence of geologist Silvia Gonzalez, who had a hunch that the bones were older than previously thought, the remains were taken to Oxford University to be carbon-dated. And indeed, tests proved Gonzalez's assertion.

Scientists said they believe that the Peñon Woman died anywhere from 12,700 to 13,000 years ago at the age of 27.

Did humans arrive in the Americas by boat?

Emboldened by her finding, Gonzalez will try to prove her theory that the bones of the Peñon Woman belong not to Native Americans, but to descendants of the Ainu people of Japan.

She said she bases her hypothesis on the elongated, narrow shape of the Peñon Woman's skull. Native Americans, she said, are round-faced with broad cheeks. "Quite different from Peñon Woman," she said.

She said she believes descendants of the Ainu people made their way to the New World by island hoping on boats.

"If this proves right, it's going to be quite contentious," said Gonzalez, who teaches at John Moores University in England and received a grant last week from the British government to conduct her research. "We're going to say to Native Americans, 'Maybe there were some people in the Americas before you, who are not related to you.' "

Gonzalez's theory is controversial but gaining credence in scientific circles, where up to now many believed hardy mammoth hunters were first to arrive in the Americas 14,000 to 16,000 years ago by crossing into Alaska from Siberia.

Gonzalez and other scientists said they believe people may have arrived in America as much as 25,000 years ago. She points to evidence of camps -- man-made tools, a human footprint and huts dating back 25,000 years -- that have been found in Chile as evidence of man's imprint on the Americas long before mammoth hunters.

Searching for answers to coastal migration

Gonzalez will embark on a three-year journey to prove her theory. As part of that journey, she will travel to Baja California to study the Pericue (Pericus) people, who shared the same elongated faces of the Peñon Woman. She said she believes that the Pericue, who for unknown reasons went extinct in the 18th century, may hold the answers to coastal migration of man from Asia to America.

The bones of the Peñon Woman will have DNA extracted to compare it with genetic matter of the Pericue, she said. Scientists also said they hope to study clothes fibers found near the skeleton and try to piece together how the woman died. Gonzalez said the skeleton does not show any wounds or obvious injuries.

"We still have a long way to go," she said. "But we have a good start."

[Oztrich Boy]

Menzies says all records of the voyages were later destroyed.

shesh! one thing we learnt from 1984: If you destroy the records it never happened.

At least the Irish and Norse were bright enough to keep a note of what they did.

[pabianice]

But Menzies's tale, which looks at a well-documented voyage by a Ming Dynasty fleet in 1421, is more specific in its assertions than most theories. In his version, a fleet led by admiral Zheng He rounded the Cape of Good Hope and then split up. One group explored South America, Antarctica, and Australia, while other ships toured Central and North America, circled Greenland, learned to measure longitude, and established settlements. Menzies says all records of the voyages were later destroyed.

BZZZTTT! Sorry. Wrong answer! You don't "learn to measure longitiude." To measure and plot rough longitude you need a timepiece accurate to within several minutes after a journey of months (or, when I was a Navy nav in the 70s, to within ten seconds). No such watch or clock existed in 1421, and certainly not in the Chinese Navy. The Brits finally built such a clock in the Eighteenth Century.

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

"In fourteen hundred twenty-one
China sailed there before anyone."

So sorry dear heart, but they were 421 years too late to be the first for sure. One things this does show is that our ancestors moved around a lot more then we think.

The Vikings would have stayed if the little ice age hadn’t hit but the rest just stopped by for a visit before going on their merry way. As for Cristobol Colon, timing is every thing.

[pabianice]

But perhaps more significant than the age, researchers said, is that the skull and other bones were found while a well was being dug near Mexico City International Airport. Because the remains were discovered outside the United States, scientists will be able to study the DNA and structure of the skeleton without the objection of Native American groups, who can claim and rebury ancestral remains under a 1990 U.S. law.

American Indians' pitiful scramble to keep evidence away from scientists is just a delaying tactic. We'll know in the next few years just who got to the Americas first.

[blam]

Ancient Navigation

[blam]

Olmec And Shang Chinese

[JudyB1938]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/easter/civilization/navigation.html

What a coincidence you posted that link, Blam. I was thinking of that very thing as I was reading through this thread.

[JudyB1938]

http://www.sinorama.com.tw/en/8605/605006e1.html

THANK YOU! I am so tired of reading the Olmecs were black. I've known for years what their true origins were - ever since I read PALE INK, a translation of the ancient Chinese Classic of the Mountans and the Seas, by Henrietta Mertz. I found it interesting that the article mentioned it, too ...

"In China, some people have also inferred from ancient records that the Chinese discovered America. For instance, the Liang Shu (History of the Liang) from the 7th century AD mentions that in the Southern Dynasties period a monk named Huishen crossed the ocean and discovered a land named "Fusang," which Liang Qichao (1873-1929) believed to be today's Mexico. Others have tried to match the places described in the legends of the Shan Hai Jing (Classic of Mountains and Seas) with individual locations in the Americas."

[Grand Old Partisan]

That's not true. As was known to the ancients, longitude could be determined by careful observations of the moon over several nights, which was impossible on a ship, hence the need for an accurate timepiece for shipboard calculation.

[T. P. Pole]

Regardless of who sailed to America before, once Columbus "discovered" it, it stayed discovered.

[blam]

Tuesday evening bump.

[SunkenCiv]

---

---

[SunkenCiv]

Not a ping, just a GGG update.

Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on, off, or alter the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
The GGG Digest -- Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

[SunkenCiv]

Just updating the GGG information, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.

Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

[RobbyS]

One thing is sure: Columbus did discover the western hemisphere and is the only one who established his claim. Maybe the Chinese were before him; maybe the Portuguese were, and surely the Vikings were, BUT, the continous link between east and west begins in 1492. Given the ingenuity of men as sailors, it is quite possible that small expeditions reached the west from both Asia and Europe as long ago as the Ice Age. BUT We don't know, for sure, who or exactly when or where they landed. We have forgotten more history than we remember.

[SunkenCiv]

---

---

[SunkenCiv]

· join list or digest · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post a topic · subscribe ·
	Gods Graves Glyphs	Just updating the GGG info, not sending a general distribution. To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
·Dogpile · Archaeologica · ArchaeoBlog · Archaeology · Biblical Archaeology Society · · Discover · Nat Geographic · Texas AM Anthro News · Yahoo Anthro & Archaeo · Google · · The Archaeology Channel · Excerpt, or Link only? · cgk's list of ping lists ·