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Front Sight Institute Shaking Down Glocktalk.com
GlockTalk.com ^ | 11-04-2002 | Dasher

Posted on 11/04/2002 8:12:21 PM PST by dasher

The Front Sight Institute is trying to eliminate people opinions on thier company at the fire arms enthusiest board Glocktalk.com

http://glocktalk.com/announcement.php?s=&forumid=19

----- Hi folks. I recently received a certified letter, from Front Sight Firearms Training Institute's lawyer, concerning negative posts made on Glock Talk. In addition to wanting me to ban an individual that made allegations against them, the message threatened legal action against this site if I didn't 'Carefully check posts in the future concerning Front Site'. ------

We have enough to deal with putting up with the anti-gunners themselves. Please send an email to info@frontsight.com and let them know what you think about this strong arm tactic.

Thanks!


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: bang; banglist; freespeech; guncontrol; gungrab; guntraining
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We have enough problems putting up with the anti's, this is cowardly of them.
1 posted on 11/04/2002 8:12:21 PM PST by dasher
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To: *bang_list
Bang
2 posted on 11/04/2002 8:17:27 PM PST by Atlas Sneezed
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To: dasher
Sounds like the NRA trying to strongarm americasfirstfreedom.com into surrendering their website name for a measly $300.
3 posted on 11/04/2002 8:38:36 PM PST by Blood of Tyrants
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To: dasher
I just joined GT a little while ago. This is absolutely ridiculous. The 1st ammendment can be excersized only when it is in FS' favor, for instance, their freedom to express the way they best think an operation should be run and their own methodology of training. This sounds really negative and deserves some exposure.

Molon Labe
4 posted on 11/04/2002 8:43:56 PM PST by Freemeorkillme
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To: dasher
A lawyer friend of mine did a quick search, and there are a BUNCH of lawsuits concerning Front Sight in Nevada.

We couldn't find the one in question, but as near as we can tell there are several concerning breach of contract, failure to pay contractors, engineers, & architects, mechanic's leins, etc.

5 posted on 11/04/2002 8:56:39 PM PST by Ford Fairlane
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To: Ford Fairlane
Thanks for the tip. I'll communicate it over to some people. FSI will run out of money to pay legal bills at some point.

Thanks again!
6 posted on 11/04/2002 8:59:51 PM PST by dasher
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To: dasher
Was it the post questioning FrontSight's link with Scientology, or was it something else that started the problem?
7 posted on 11/04/2002 9:08:41 PM PST by Tree of Liberty
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To: Tree of Liberty
I'm sure it has something to do with that thread. Sure looks like they have alot to hide doesn't it.
8 posted on 11/04/2002 9:16:28 PM PST by dasher
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To: dasher
Anyone interested should take special care to research just who pays that "Front Sight" attorney's salary.

And if you ask me, this glocktalk.com moderator could not be more of a grade-A wuss.
9 posted on 11/04/2002 9:22:47 PM PST by lainie
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To: Tree of Liberty
I tried to post info about Kahr Arms and their scientology owners. Thread locked.
10 posted on 11/04/2002 9:23:48 PM PST by Freemeorkillme
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To: lainie
Eric has been having alot of health problems lately. If he was in better shape, I'm sure he would put up a fight but right now I can't blame him for laying low.
11 posted on 11/04/2002 9:29:08 PM PST by dasher
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To: Freemeorkillme
"I tried to post info about Kahr Arms and their scientology owners."

Kahr isn't owned by Scientology. It's owned by the son of Rev. Sun Myung Moon of the "Moonies."

That I know of, no gunmaker nor ammo loader - nor any manufacturer in the gun industry - is owned by Scientology.

GUN REVIEWS free from ad-money bias - emphasizing woman-friendliness of tested guns!

12 posted on 11/04/2002 9:51:30 PM PST by glc1173@aol.com
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To: dasher
Tonight was the first I've heard about any supposed connection between the two, but given that FrontSight's only communication about such a matter on a well known firearms message board has been a law suit threat does say something.
13 posted on 11/04/2002 9:54:11 PM PST by Tree of Liberty
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To: Tree of Liberty
It's not the only communication.. they're also suing the originator of the allegations.

http://www.lermanet.com/scientologyscandals/fourthsecret.htm

He's had his statement removed. I wish I had a mirrored copy.

14 posted on 11/04/2002 10:02:09 PM PST by lainie
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To: dasher
I feel badly that he's sick, and I can understand someone not wishing to fight the Scientology machine in court. But sheesh, talk about rolling over. 'I'm not about to police the threads, so I'm just gonna let them have their way.' He didn't even write any of the rants, what's he afraid of?
15 posted on 11/04/2002 10:05:08 PM PST by lainie
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To: dasher
Here's posts on the subject at AR15.com and The Firing Line.
16 posted on 11/04/2002 10:29:47 PM PST by Tree of Liberty
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To: glc1173@aol.com
MAJOR APOLOGIES. It was getting late. Moonies were who I meant there, folks. To me they are all cults. Not difference.
17 posted on 11/05/2002 4:31:50 AM PST by Freemeorkillme
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To: Blood of Tyrants
I have a copy of the NRA magazine, "America's First Freedom" on my desk in front of me right now. Could it be the owners of the website bought the name just after the magazine came out and decided to make a profit after paying the registration fee?

I think the amount to register a name on the internet is something like 30 dollars. A profit of ten times sounds reasonable.
18 posted on 11/05/2002 6:25:27 AM PST by Shooter 2.5
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To: lainie
I found this in the Google archives:

This is G o o g l e's cache of http://www.lermanet.com/scientologyscandals/fourthsecret.htm.
G o o g l e's cache is the snapshot that we took of the page as we crawled the web.
The page may have changed since that time. Click here for the current page without highlighting.
To link to or bookmark this page, use the following url: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:35U5e4p4mBIC:www.lermanet.com/scientologyscandals/fourthsecret.htm+front+sight+scientology&hl=en&ie=UTF-8


Google is not affiliated with the authors of this page nor responsible for its content.
These search terms have been highlighted:  front  sight  scientology 

Banner lermanet.com - Exposing the con | www.lermanet.com

The Fourth Secret

By Dean Gamburd

 

"If you ever do anything to interfere with my mission, I could not guarantee your safety or that of your family".

     These words spoken to me by Front Sight Firearms Training Institute’s Director and Founder, Ignatius Piazza, solidified my deepest fear about to what extent he was willing to go to protect his dark secret. And that secret is that he, Ignatius Piazza, is a hard core Scientologist using the Front Sight Firearms Training Institute as his personal Scientology recruiting ground, cash generator, and to further the ultimate goals and presence of Scientology. Ex-Chiropractor Ignatius Piazza is listed on Scientology’s WISE list, IAS list and it is documented in Scientology’s Auditor (note 1) publication #296 dated October 2001, as his being "clear". For those who don’t know, to get "clear" takes an estimated $250,000 - $400,000 dollar investment in Scientology classes. By completing that mark, he is now able to move up to higher and more glorious levels within the Scientology organization.

     However Piazza has a problem. To date he is very short on Scientology conversions to his credit. (note 2)To move up within Scientology Piazza needs to send them fresh sheep to be sheered. Hence, while he only had up to this point, occasionally and very behind the scenes, solicited his full time staff, instructors and certain well-heeled Front Sight students for Scientology, he was now about to launch a full assault to help him move up the Scientology ladder, through the Front Sight First Family Ambassador Program and other soon to be announced programs.

     First some history, the dream of Front Sight that was sold to all of us by Piazza was that the Front Sight Firearms Training Institute would be "the" state of the art firearm’s training facility. Only the best instructors, ranges, learning tools, and techniques would be used there. Front Sight students would have the option of buying different levels of memberships to meet each of their needs up to whatever level they wanted to participate. There were inexpensive memberships which initially sold for around $5k, now selling for closer to $20K, all the way up to Platinum memberships now selling for $500K. Platinum Memberships include a 1 acre deeded lot with your membership. The fact that there is no approved plot map, no one licensed to sell real estate, or Deeds of Trust being exchanged is only of minor interest to Piazza. For you see according to Piazza,

"Scientology has taught me how to get around these things, including the IRS, and once they hear I am a Scientologist, they will not want to investigate me as they will be too afraid of what Scientology will do to them".

     It would appear that Scientology has taught him some very interesting things.

     I must stop here and disclose that Piazza did tell me back in 1996 that he was a Scientologist and had been so for several years. But I, like to many others, did not fully understand all that that disclosure encompassed. He and his Scientologist wife Jennifer Mueller-Piazza, did send me and my wife a couple of books on Scientology and offered to "gift us" all expense paid classes if we were to join Scientology. But we quickly returned the books and said our no thank-you very politely. We try to be very open-minded people. What one chooses to believe or participate in is their business. Well, their business up to the point it impacts my family or me. And I take death threats as being very personal and very serious. Especially when it is from the head of an organization that trains Scientologist[s] in the use of all of the small firearms.(note 3) And that is why I have decided to step forward and tell some of what I know here. I have kept quiet since my resignation on October 1, 2001, as an Instuctor/Rangemaster and member of the Board of Directors of Front Sight. But I cannot stay quiet any longer.

     For too long while still at Front Sight, I said nothing and just kept working to make Front Sight what we all thought it was to be. I was not alone in this mission. For Front Sight went through many of the finest instructors and staff I have ever had the pleasure of working with and learning from. Piazza’s differences with world-renowned firearms trainer and author, Mr. Chuck Taylor, from whom Piazza received his Four Weapons Combat Master training and certification are well documented. Piazza finally labeled Taylor as a "suppressive person" in Scientology speak, because Taylor refused to bow down to Piazza’s Neopolianonic, mega ego verbal attacks and attempts to fully control everything and everyone. I was to latter be labeled as a "loose cannon" as I would refuse to stick to the subscribed lesson plan if a student or class needed more or special attention to gain a skill or work through a problem he/she or they were having. After all, wasn’t that the main goal of Front Sight, to be the best teachers we could be and to give our students the best we could offer? It appears it is not. I was not alone in being chastised over and over again for trying to teach or improve the curriculum. The more we instructors pushed to improve the learning portion of the Front Sight program, the more resistance we got from Piazza.

     The teaching program was set up from material taken from the famed Gunsite and its founder Col. Cooper, Chuck Taylor, Mike Weidlich, and others. Front Sight Instructors were to memorize each individual classes teaching script given to us by Pizza and that was that. We were not deviate, modify, embellish or change any word as it is scripted. It was however ok for Piazza to let the students out an hour or more late to the shooting ranges from a sales presentation. But should we instructors run five minutes late getting those same students back into the classroom for another sales presentation, we would be verbally abused or threatened with losing our jobs. I should mention though we all were called "employees", all full time site workers, the instructor core and grounds crew were required to sign Independent Contractor agreements. This though we all worked exclusively under the direction of, in the uniform provided by, at the specific times and dates and with the specific words required by Piazza. Scientology had taught Piazza by having signed Independent Contractor agreements he could avoid paying significant employer taxes and bypass all the fillings and risking the occasional state audits that are just such as nuisance.

     All those connected to Front Sight must at some time have wondered where those many ten’s of millions of dollars raised through all of the membership sales, various class certificates sales and other grand promotions have gone. It is certainly not into the physical building of Front Sight. Piazza understood well that the most profitable time for him would be during the fund raising and membership drives. Today the classroom is still a plastic coated tent using second hand indoor-outdoor carpeting as flooring. None of the ranges is completely finished The 550 acres of land that Front Sight sits on was paid for by an investor who took several Platinum Programs in exchange for his purchasing the land, so that can’t be counted as money paid out. And of course it’s well documented that the initial contractor Martin-Harris, was never paid.

     You might care to research the lawsuit by Martin-Harris out of Las Vegas and the counter suit by Front Sight. Another bit of Scientology teaching may be at work here. Seems Piazza promised Martin-Harris they could build the future housing projects in the next stages of Front Sights proposed development if Martin-Harris assisted them in getting the 4-mile long road in and a few buildings up. But Piazza may not have had any real plans of paying Martin-Harris as agreed. Pizza had been taught in Scientology to promise anything to get what you wanted and "not be afraid to hurt anyone in a just cause", item 12 in Scientology’s list of acceptable behavior if I remember correctly. So maybe it was always Piazza’s plan to pay Martin-Harris a lesser sum then agreed to and to delay payments by telling Martin-Harris that he needed more time for the next promotion to bring in more cash. This game might go on as long as Martin-Harris was willing to play. If Martin-Harris stopped work, then Front Sight might sue because everyone knows that all contractors will make mistakes or do something incorrectly. And once sued, Front Sight would not have to pay monies out that could be put to better use. This is basically what transpired and can be verified through the court records and stories printed in the Las Vegas Sun and other Las Vegas newspapers. So again there are no more real large sums of money paid out other then to Front Sights attorneys and maybe Scientology?

 

     The first weekend Front Sight ran a "Special Student Status" promotion at the Imperial Palace Hotel in Las Vegas, Front Sight took in over $800,000 dollars. And that same promotion was run several more times at the Imperial Palace. This promotion was already after years of generating millions of dollars supposedly for the building of Front Sight. Front Sight is a real cash cow. Over three-dozen Platinum programs have been sold, plus thousands of "special Student Status Certificates", hundreds upon hundreds of other class certificates too. Front Sight itself claims over 1100 First Family Members plus they have a Founding Fathers Society in which one can contribute up to 1 million dollars to get into the "inner circle". All instructors were required to give $1000 to the Founding Fathers, donate an equal amount in work time or maybe face not working anymore. The last several months I was there Piazza would brag to me of having "million dollars months".

     Then there are all the other little incidents that add up like his taking in exchange for a $50K First Family Program, $20k in cash and a antique woody station wagon, appraised at $30k or more. The Piazza's drove the woody for a couple of months before trading it for a special factory late 60’s or early 70’s Chevy Drag Camero that Piazza still owns. Wasn’t all that money supposed to go to towards the building of Front Sight? Apparently not.

     So now Piazza needs more Scientology recruits to assist his climb up the Scientology ladder. Sure he had been quietly soliciting students and staff up to this point. And some students and staff had even gone to a few Scientology classes. But only one or two had pledged conversion to Scientology. Hence the dawning of the Ambassadors program. Here Front Sight could claim to teach to the already self-selected First Family members, all about earning tens of thousands of dollars by becoming local Front Sight and 2sd Amendment experts. All they needed to do is to take some "management classes" using the Hubbard Management System, given by Hubbard Management experts Front Sight brought in from Los Angeles and paid for. Front Sight would even pay for the first few classes all these good folks needed to attend. But I bet if one really wants to become a better business person, improve the quality of their life, or increase their income, it would be suggested that they should take more intense and detailed Hubbard Classes or some beneficial Auditing at their local Scientology Center. I wonder if Piazza ever told them that he stands to make 10-30% (Note 1 ) off of every Scientology class they ever take besides gaining Scientology conversion points towards his personal credit?

     Well I hope this gives you some food for thought. There is much more to talk about like the private grade school and church scheduled to be built on the Front Sight property and the separate "celebrity center". One must wonder what will really be taught in that grade school or in that church. I wonder if it starts out by explaining about some space aliens, thousands of years ago now inhabiting our bodies? And then there is the firearms armory, bulletproof armed towers, Front Sight II which was to be about an hours drive or so from Clearwater, Fl, and much much more!

 


Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021003202558.03701380@pop3.norton.antivirus.>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 20:33:01 -0700
From: Ignatius Piazza
Subject: Re: API: Front Sight and Scientology???
Peter,

Straight from the horses mouth:

Dean Gamburd is entitled to his opinions,
but he is not entitled to lie.

As anyone who attends courses or works for
Front Sight knows, Front Sight is not affiliated
with, connected to, recruiting for, or financially
supporting ANY religious groups.

Dean's statements are slanderous, libelous, as
well as being ridiculous.

After reading his posts, I must question his sanity
and motives.

If he is attempting to start his own training school,
this is certainly not the way to try to pull students
from Front Sight. His actions will be very expensive.

Front Sight's attorney is handling Dean Gamburd.

Feel free to spread this information if you like.

Ignatius Piazza

letter sent 6:15 PM Oct 4
Dear Mr. Piazza,

Just saying in effect 'it's all lies' is fine and dandy, and I have no doubt that the 'corporation' called Front Sight has no direct 'legal' relationship to 'Scientology', as you state in your posting, however, the core of this article is based upon your alleged financial support of scientology, and the extent of that involvement, which was not addressed by your posting.

If you would like to respond further to the allegations in the article I will gladly post them also, further, if I were to believe there is in fact a factual error not addressed by the notes on the page in question I would instantly will pull the article, however I currently believe the veracity Mr. Dan Gamburd's letter.

My questions are these.

1) Is or has Front Sight Firearms or any related corporation controlling Front Sight ever been a member of WISE? World Institute of Scientology Enterprises?

2) What is you grade level on the Scientology Gradation chart any? and are you a member of the Association Of Scientologists International? Are you a Scientologist? { I was one for ten years. so its a fair question)

3) What is the truth to controvert the 'lies' in the article?

A few additional questions come to mind now that I have found your email address.

4) Has Front Sight ever offered to store non-registered assault weapons?

5) Is or has any Scientology entity or individual resident of Golden Era Base Hemet California ever purchased "assault" weaponry from Front Sight?

Sincerely,

Arnaldo LermaI'd prefer to die speaking my mind than live fearing to speak.
The only thing that always works in scientology are its lawyers
The internet is the liberty tree of the new millennium
Secrets are the mortar binding lies as bricks together into prisons for the mind
http://www.lermanet.com - mentioned 4 January 2000 in The Washington Post's - 'Reliable Source' column re "Scientologist with no HEAD"

(Notes by Webmaster )

Note 1 - The "Auditor" in this case, is published by "ASHO" in Los Angeles  California.

Note  2 - Scientology written policy directs that they will pay 5% and 10% sales commisions called "FSM" (Field Staff Member) Commissions to those who 'select' a person for scientology's services. Considering the cost of Scientology's offerings this can amount to a livelyhood commensurate with Real Estate Agents as $100,000 to scientology is not enough to cross their "bridge"

Note 3 - Excerpt from Declaration of Andre Tabayoyan   (left is link to complete declaration) 5th day of March, 1994  Andre was at one time head of security at Scientologys facility near Hemet California

"SCIENTOLOGY IS ARMED AND DANGEROUS

28. In 1991 I had to prepare the base so that it could be defended against the possibility of being taken over by the authorities in a time of crisis. There are approx. 750 people at the base. I was in charge of a project designing the base security system, the perimeter fence, the ultra razor barriers, the lighting of the perimeter fence, the electronic monitors, the concealed microphones, the ground sensors, the motion sensors and hidden cameras which were installed and all over the area -- even outside the base.

29. Church monies were used to purchase semi-automatic assault rifles (HK 91 assault rifles capable of firing 300-350 rounds of ammunition a minute, 45 caliber pistols, .380 automatic weapons and twelve gauge shotguns were stockpiled. These weapons were not registered. Church monies were also used to buy the ammunition.

30. Church monies were also used to purchase a large amount of pounds of gunpowder for the construction of various types of explosive devices to be used in the defense of the base."

 

guncity.gif (114006 bytes)

from article in National Enquirer


A building permit proposal was published the Sunday April 11 l999 issue, on page was H-2, of the The Riverside Press Enterprise for a $23,146 improvement for a shotgun practice range. Golden Era used to have a radio show radio show on sundays, a call in once asked about the range and was told it was for the use of their "members".

I ask rhetorically: "A tax-exempt charitable religious gun range?"

Related: Scientology's Underground Bunkers [ Link to Images at top, this is from an IRS Form 990


"The difference between a civil society and armed gangs roaming the streets,
is a functioning judiciary"
from training course by the US Mission to Haiti to re-establish civil rule

Home | F.A.Q.'s | Legal | News | Contact us | I Want to Help


19 posted on 11/05/2002 6:49:34 AM PST by TroutStalker
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To: Shooter 2.5
I'm sorry, I directed you incorrrectly. The site in question is http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/

The owner states his case here: http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/bullied/
20 posted on 11/05/2002 7:28:07 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants
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