Replies

"If the Catholic Church were to kick out every pro-choice person or politician, the pews would be empty," said Frances Kissling, president of Catholics for Free Choice, a Washington-based advocacy group.

Fat, dumb and stupid is no way to go through life, Frank.

". . . a woman with a mission. A Catholic with attitude.... It's clear why the Pope breaks out in a cold sweat whenever Kissling gets up on a podium."
-- New Woman Magazine

"The public face of the Roman Catholic opposition to the church's antifeminist agenda... Nothing if not controversial."
-- Ms. Magazine

"Most people agree with me. As I travel in the United States and everywhere, the average Catholic who knows what I'm doing says, Oh, I'm so glad you're out there doing this. But when it comes to both right wing Catholics and also the hierarchy, they are extremely angry at anyone who speaks out against official teaching. And especially if you're successful at it, and particularly if you know what you're saying. So I do get a lot of flak from those people Although in the end, one of the beauties of the church is that they themselves believe in their own rules, and they know that I have a right to say what I'm saying. And so while they may criticize me for it, no church official has ever suggested that I should be excommunicated or that I am not a Catholic."
--CNBC, Pozner/Donahue Show

Since when does she think she doesn't have a free choice? She and any other Catholic are free to choose to have an abortion or to live out-of-wedlock or to rob banks or to embezzle money from their employers or to have more than one spouse (conjointly or serially). What she wants, though, is to have the Church label her choice of abortion as "good, moral, right, holy, and consistent with church teaching".

The Global Fund for Women was established in 1987 by Anne Firth Murray, the Global Fund's Founding President and first CEO. Along with co-founders Frances Kissling and Laura Lederer, she determined to address the lack of funding available to women activists worldwide with the creation of a global foundation dedicated to their support. Dame Nita Barrow, former Governor General of Barbados, and a leading figure in the global women's movement was the fourth founding member of the Global Fund. In September 1996, Ms. Murray retired and was succeeded by Kavita Nandini Ramdas the current President and CEO.

Taken from the March, 1999, issue of Inside The Vatican. The caption under the picture reads as follows: "Some at the UN meeting claimed to represent the Church though dissenting from Church teaching on abortion. Frances Kissling (above), President of Catholics for a Free Choice, which supports abortion, was among these. Here she is shown with American professor Anthony Padovano, a former priest, at a workshop."

An Interview with Frances Kissling
The president of Catholics For Free Choice talks about church doctrine,
victories---and the gender issues still facing the church.
by Kim McCarten

You said that when you first joined CFC you were reluctant to call yourself a pro-choice Catholic? Why were you reluctant?

Part of the reluctance was to identify myself as Catholic---not so much to combine the Catholicism and the pro-choice perspective, which is trouble for a lot of people. I think like many people, I was reasonably religious in my younger years- --and moved away from the church as I became an adult, and dealt with what it means to be an adult in our society. So in that sense, I had never become anything else [any other religion]-although for most of my adult life, I felt the church wasn't particularly relevant to me. So it was really a question of integrity: Could I see myself as a Catholic, was I a Catholic? What did it mean to be a Catholic? Those were the kinds of questions that I found myself asking-and it came down to a point where I said yes, I am a Catholic. This is the faith that I believe in, and the way in which I express it way be different from traditional formats---but nonetheless, I'm comfortable with that.

You said that as your tenure has gone on it has become more 'frankly feminist'. What specifically have you done to steer it in that direction?

First of all, I'm a feminist myself and have been a feminist for quite a long time. But I think that it was not just an individual process of steering [the organization] more towards feminism, but a collective process within the organization. As the staff and board looked at the issues more carefully, we came to a deeper understanding as to why the Catholic church opposes abortion. The arguments we were hearing from the church were about respect for life, and the fetus has an absolute right to life from the moment of conception, and the church is opposed to killing--- but we came to understand as we looked closer at the church's behavior, teachings, etc. that this was an anti-woman position. It wasn't about protecting fetuses---it really was about controlling women. And that if one looks at the history, the way in which the church has treated women, written about women, and really disrespected and feared women, one comes to understand that that is what the opposition to abortion is about. That's how CFC became a more feminist organization. Once you understand that the problem here is hatred of women, you begin to understand as an organization that the way in which you overcome or change the church's position on abortion, is to work on some of the root issues around misogyny and patriarchy.

So your focus then shifted to 'the church hasn't been against abortion, it's against women'? In fact, I read that the church didn't come out against abortion until 1869.

The church has always been against abortion---although it was not 'absolutized' before 1869. In 1869, the church said having an abortion, any time in pregnancy for any reason can result in the automatic excommunication of the people involved. That was what was new in 1869. But historically, if you look at the position against abortion, it is not rooted in the church's opposition to killing, it's rooted in the church's teachings around sexuality. So the reason the church opposed abortion traditionally was not because the church thought it was murder, but rather because abortion was seen as a violation of the teaching that every sexual act must be open to procreation. And obviously, if you have a sexual act that results in a pregnancy and you have an abortion, you've violated that teaching. You can look at lots of early church doctrine where this is very well articulated. So, for example, in the early centuries of the church, the church developed books which I call penetentials, which were lists of penances for different kinds of things. And for abortion there were always penances---but they were listed under the section on sins against sexuality, not in the section on murder. If you look at the church of today, we don't see a teaching that says the fetus is a person. Which is shocking. Most people think that the church believes that fetuses are people. But there is no such teaching.

That leads to my next question: What do you think is the biggest miscon-ception about church teachings on abortion?

I think that's it-that the church has definitively taught that the fetus is a person from the moment of conception--and it hasn't. The church position is (and this is not my position) says that 'we do not know when the fetus becomes a person.' And because we do not know, we must act as if the fetus was a person. In the absence of knowledge, we absolutize the behavior. And our position is that the absence of knowledge leads to freedom to sift and weigh what we do know from what is speculated in different philosophical, medical and theological realms-and come to our own conclusion about what we think. Because we do know that women are people-for a while there was some debate in the church about that! But we do now know and accept that women are people. And therefore, to say that we should put a higher priority on a form of life whose personhood is not known over a form of life--women--whose personhood is known---is to us to denigrade women.

And that, it seems, is the ultimate choice--you have to decide who is more important at that point . . .

Who has more standing . . .

Which makes the church stance an inherently anti-woman stance. It seems the church has problems with issues of sexuality because they have problems with women.

I think the two are very much linked. There have been articles about this, and I've written about this. If you look at the church historically and the way in which both women and sexuality were feared---women were feared because they were perceived to be this 'ultimate sexual temptation'. The men took no responsibility for their sexual desires---it was always the 'bad' woman. And the bad woman has to be controlled. So sexuality has to be controlled. It's no accident, for example, when you look today's religious beliefs about abortion, that it is those religious institutions which have the most repressive teachings about women, that are anti-abortion. Orthodox Judaism, which does not allow women to become rabbis is against abortion. Roman Catholicism---same thing; the Mormon church . . . You have the same teachings . . . even in Islam, there is a more nuanced position [on abortion]. And of course Roman Catholicism is the only religion that absolutely forbids contraception. Islam is totally accepting of the use of contra-ception within marriage. We tend to think of Islam as a more conservative religion, and the reality is that Roman Catholicism has them all beat.

I read that the Vatican tried to stop your group from attending the International Conference on Women in Bejing. I wondered if you saw that as a compliment to your effectiveness and power?

Absolutely! It was interesting. We were really active at the Cairo conference (on population) in 1994. And that angered the Vatican enormously. We were really successful in raising serious issues to the UN about the status of the Vatican. What standing does the Vatican have to be recognized as a state, never mind as an 'expert' on population and reproductive health? The citizens of the Vatican are comprised of 1000 men. There are no women citizens, no children citizens---why are we listening to these people? We raised a lot of those points. So when it came time for Bejing (1997), the Vatican stepped up to the plate and very seriously challenged our right to be credentialed for that meeting. And the UN, of course, overrode the Vatican objections and did admit us. It was an enormous victory for us and visible proof of the way in which the Vatican tries to silence anyone who disagrees with them.

Do you think the power and influence of the Vatican is growing, in terms of being a threat to women's lives around the world?

In some ways, yes. I think there is a mixed picture. One of the things that is really important, especially in the developing countries, is that the Vatican is such a major provider of healthcare and social services. It has used it's social service agencies and hospitals to further this doctrine, and as a result, women are not properly cared for in terms of reproductive health. The Vatican also has a way of really influencing government policy to be anti-family-planning. On the other hand, I do think over the next decade, particularly as this papacy fades and dies, that their influence will diminish.

What affect has CFC had in Latin America, where there is more of a traditional society?

We're having a very, very strong affect. We have sister organizations that we've helped establish in Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, and Peru that are independent of us. So there is a very strong, pro-choice Catholic movement in those countries as a result of the work we've done. In Brazil, there have been a number of efforts to change the laws on abortion in recent years, although none of them have succeeded. And the Catholics for Free Choice organization there has been very active in those efforts. They're having the same kind of affect that we have here [in the US], in terms of giving the Vatican a run for its money in claiming that Catholics simply do not approve of family planning. I think that's the one thing, going back to the efforts to bar us from the Bejing conference, that causes the Vatican so much distress-we insist on calling ourselves Catholics. If we would only just not use the word 'Catholic'. But the very fact that someone stands upand says 'I am a Catholic. I am pro-choice. I disagree with this church and it does not represent me,' ---especially when we know that the vast majority of the Catholics in the world disagree with the church's position on family planning---is very, very threatening to them.

I read that once women in these countries discover that there are Catholics who don't believe the church's teachings on family planning and abortion that it opens the door for them.

Absolutely. People say that to me all the time: 'I never knew there was a group like yours out there. I always felt like I was the only Catholic who felt this way.' Then they learn that there is a whole movement of people and they are much more comfortable. It's very empowering.

What direction do you see the Vatican going in with a new pope?

In the immediate future, with the next pope, I do think the Vatican will be as conservative as it is now. But one of the big problems for the church right now is the shortage of priests. I don't think the next pope will 'allow' women to be priests; but he will allow married men to become priests. There's no question in my mind. It must happen. It can happen. There is NO theological barrier. After all, most of the apostles were married. And for the first thousand years, the church had married priests and married bishops. So it can happen---and it will be absolutely essential that the next pope do this. Well, the next step is birth control. You can't have married priests, with wives, having sex, having children, and not using birth control.

Because the parish has to support them?

That's right. We can't afford not to. So I think that there is a practical trajectory that will influence [this issue]---then everything else will follow.

What do you think is the biggest misunderstanding that church leaders have about women who have abortions?

I think probably they have an image of a woman who is a selfish, individualistic, hedonistic person who is only looking out for own convenience. Or someone who does this on the spur of the moment. My experience has been that many of these women wish that their lives were different, that they could carry this pregnancy to term. If they were acting selfish, they would have a child. And the reality is that this is a very unselfish act; to give up what, under most circumstances, they would view as a positive experience---because they cannot provide for a child.

What other gender issues does CFC work on?

We work on the question of women priests. We believe that women should be ordained for the priesthood.

Do you think that is going to happen in your lifetime?

Well it depends on how long I live!

Within the next fifty years!?

I do think that is will be much longer in coming; perhaps forty or fifty years. First we need the married guys; then we need to get the sex stuff taken care of-then maybe there will be women priests. I hope that by the time the church is ready to ordain women priests, that we would have overturned the priesthood-that we would have a more egalitarian church. A church in which we were not talking about who is the priest, not talking about a permanent, elitist priesthood---but a more democratic model of church leadership.

Does CFC have a position on teenage sex?

In a more generic sense, what we would say is that we think the ethical justification for sexuality that the church puts forward, which is procreation, is the wrong model. The way in which we should evaluate whether a sexual relationship is 'good' is by using the model of justice-every other relationship is judged this way---by whether justice exists between the two people; between a boss and employee, etc.

Justice being another word for equality?

Well equality would be a part of justice. Each person should have the best interests of the other person at heart; there should be no domination of the other, no one cheats anyone else, you are honorable with each other---those are some of the characteristics of what constitutes justice between two people. And such relationships can exists outside marriage, and between people of the same gender, they can also exist between teenagers.

Have you dealt with what is an appropriate age for sex, intercourse?

We haven't dealt with it that finely.

It seems to be coming up more and more. I've read 'sex columnists', like Susie Bright in supposedly feminist publications tell 13-year-olds that they are ready for intercourse. I'm very liberated about sexuality, but I'm not liberated to the point of stupidity.

Exactly.

How do you feel about condoms distributed in schools?

We think that condoms should be available.

And sexuality education?

Yes. We think it's critical---and it should mean not only education about how to make babies, the mechanics---but also deal with values, and respect and self-esteem . . .

. . . which is totally left out. How bout parental consent on abortion?

We have a strong believe that parents should be involved in a young person's decision about abortion. We don't think you can do this by passing a law which sends a letter to parents that a kid has to get signed-we think this is stupid. There are other and better ways to ensure parental involvement in situations that don't involve abuse. And more should be done to help young people involve their parents. There should be more counseling available, counseling that enables profes-sionals to spend more time with the young person and with their parents; things that would help get parents and young people together when these difficult decisions need to made. And it's a tough situation---you're dealing with young people who often don't have money, often don't have insurance--and then there is a time frame that's very, very short. We think there are a lot of young kids who say they can't tell their parents, but who, with proper support, could tell their parents. And we believe their parents would be helpful, not harmful. There needs to be more dialogue. I don't want a young kid going home after having a medical procedure, an emotionally trying procedure---without anyone who knows about it at home.

Do you see a possibility of the American Catholic church breaking off from Rome and forming a reform church, like other religions have done?

No. First of all I think that happened 500 years ago---it was called Protestantism! And if we don't like [Rome] now, we just become Episcopalians, Unitarians, Methodists---or whatever. My experience with Catholics, myself included, is that people have a lot of love and pride in the Roman Catholic Church-and that people want to make it a better church. They don't want to leave it. There's also a power dynamic-it's a powerful church. And we want to be a part of it. Even though the church embarrasses you, there is still a way in which you like being associated with it. For some, it's the intellectual tradition, the liberation theology movement, the way the church works with the poor---there's a lot going against dissident Catholics forming another church. In a certain sense the church, in many ways, is powerless to prevent Catholics from staying in the church and doing what they think is right. The church has not gone out of it's way to excommunicate women who have abortions, doctors who perform abortions, politicians who have a pro-choice stance---are they going to excommuni-cate Daniel Moynihan, Ted Kennedy, etc.? So it's quite possible to stay within the church and hold different views.

Do you believe that there was a pope Joan?

I don't know--- I think it's possible.

It seems like they go to a lot of trouble to check and see that each pope is male!

I've read a little bit of the literature. I'm skeptical. It's possible, but I'm skeptical.

Catholics for Free Choice is a national organization based in Washington, DC and is affiliated with Catholic organizations around the world.
They can be reached at www.cath4choice.org/ 1436 'U' Street NW, Washington, DC 20009; (202) 986-6093.