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To: MissMillie
Saying "under God" in the Pledge does not "establish" a religion. There is nothing unconstitutional about it. But in case you do think it does establish a religion, please explain to me what this "government established religion" that is based by the phrase "under God" is like. This government-established "under God" religion has been around for about 50 years and I don't believe that there has been any kind of worship meeting yet, nor has there been any kind of designation of leadership or any kind of rules. Someone out there has done a real poor job of getting this thing going!

On the other hand, taking "under God" out of the Pledge can be construed as restricting the freedom of religion (ie it implies that it is illegal to mention "God").

10 posted on 07/15/2002 8:44:27 AM PDT by kidd
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To: kidd
We are a representative republic. Our representatives don't just speak for the majority or those whose religious beliefs they concur with but all those citizens within the area from which they were elected. The rights and equality of a single citizen is not subordinant to any other or others. Our Founding Fathers knew that. Many today either don't know or ignore what our Founding Fathers knew and practiced as evidenced by the way the Constitution and Bill of Rights were written.
*****
M. Pinkney moved to add to the art: -- "but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the authority of the U. States"

M. Sherman though it unnecessary, the prevailing liberality being a sufficient security ag. such tests.

M. Gov. Morris & Gen. Pinkney approved the motion.

The motion was agreed to nem: con: and then the whole Article; N.C. only no -- & M. (Maryland) divided
*****
M. Pinkney submitted to the House, in order to be referred to the Committee of detail, the following propositions --... "No religious test or qualification shall ever be annexed to any oath of office under the authroity of the U.S."...
*****
Both quotes from "Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787" by James Madison

These are the only two references to religion I can find that occurred during the Federal Convention. There are only two references to religion in the Constitution. In each reference the government is being told "shall not" in regards to religion. I fail to see how anyone could say they would approve of "under God" or "In God we trust". They wanted a government untainted by religion. They had seen in their time and recent past the oppression that government sanctioned religion could do.

Does this mean they were anti-religous? No. Many were Christian, some were deist, some might have been like my favorite, Franklin. He really didn't give a d**n about organized religion as long as his belief in a god got him to an afterlife. They had no objections to someone in office using their personal belief in a religion to draw moral strength from. Nobody I know of does. They objected to government having any public ties to religion.

Knowing this, how does the Pledge of Allegiance as it is worded today do anything but not promote equality or individual rights and who can honestly say the Founding Fathers would have approved?

Federalist #69 (Hamilton)
Comparison of the President with other Executives

Towards the end while comparing the President of the United States to the king of Great Britain:

"The one has no particle of spiritual jurisdiction; the other is the supreme head and governor of the national church!"

I wonder what Hamilton would have thought of Eisenhower?
41 posted on 07/15/2002 12:25:09 PM PDT by BartMar
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