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To: Brad Cloven
A Republican representative form of government binds our states to the United States.  Direct elections are used to select our leaders.  The binding of the European Nations to the European Union super-state Borg, has nothing to do with being a Republic or representative form of government.  The citizens of the EU are merely absorbed.  They become a part of the collective, but they do not vote for the EU super-state officials.

I believe that a lot of people are waking up to the nature of the EU, and I don't think they like what they are seeing.

Is living under a capitalist based tyrany all that different than living under a socialist based form of tyrany?  When you lose direct control over the people who make the decisions that govern you, you live under a form of tyrany IMO.

Compared to capitalism which you equate to tyranny, what economic model do you support that yields more freedom?

I equated a non-representative form of government to tyranny.  The topic of capitalism vs socialism was secondary.  The EU super-state will be a capitalist state.  (Let's ignore the obvious exceptions for a moment.)  I still maintain that there is a similarity between the EU and Nazi Germany.  Both were and are capitalist ventures.  Both became, or were from the onset a non-representative form of goverment.

Non-representative forms of government rule from an absolute authority.  They anwer to no one.  That's tyranny.  I addressed the issue of that tyranny.  Again I will ask, if tyranical governments that rule over a capitalist society, can't be every bit as bad as a tyranical government ruling over socialism?

The focus of this question is not intended to cast a dispersion on capitalism.  It addresses non-representative forms of government.  Is tyrany good or bad, regardless of whether a society is capitalist or socialist in nature?

I say tyranny is always bad.  In no way did I attempt to say that capitalism is always bad.

That being said, life is full of some pretty great things that are very detrimental if not held in check.  Capitalism is great when it is not recognized as the sole guiding principle of the universe.  There are times when capitalism should be reigned in.

In the old model of capitalism that saw international trade in terms of obtaining supplies from outside one's borders that were not available at home, capitalism was a fantastic model.  Even capitism that sees nations trading finished products to one another is great as long as it is managed properly.  But when capitalism is given free reign across international borders there is a danger for capitalist interests to supercede national interests.

Is it ideal to allow a Loral to give away national security secrets to a rogue nation?  Is it advisable to allow certain strategic manufacturing industries to completely abandon the United States?  Is it a good idea to send all manufacturing overseas so that in the long run manufacturing R&D will be developed outside our borders, not within?

These are issues that are much more complex than the simple "is capitalism good or bad" question.  I believe capitalism can be good and bad.

Representative forms of government yield the best hopes for freedom.  Capitalism helps.  Socialism sucks.  But then our nation has become to a large degree a socialist state.  No our government hasn't nationalized businesses, but it has nationalized portions of their income.  It has nationalized portions of our individual income as well.  And that's where Nazi Germany comes in.  To the extent that Germany's economy operated under socialism, I believe ours does as well.

Let's just make sure our leadership does not go down the path of developing a level of leadership that is beyond answering directly to the people.

An American Union on the order of the European Union would have such a level of government.  The United Nations is seeking to set themselves up as a world leader.  They will answer to the EU, an AU or even and ASU.  They would be twice removed from directly answering to the people.  But they could step into any area on the planet and supercede everyone elses authority.  If either an AU or the UN manages to userp power over the US without direct answer to the United States voting public, it will be time to slap our national leadership so hard they'll be looking for their teeth (and a new life) on the next continent.

26 posted on 03/18/2002 3:50:53 PM PST by DoughtyOne
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To: DoughtyOne
Then to close this one out, I think we're agreed: tyranny of governments is bad, capitalism in economies is good. I must have misinterpreted your initial capitalist tyranny remark.

Peace, brother?

28 posted on 03/19/2002 12:27:37 PM PST by Uncle Miltie
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