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Microsoft fights Bundestag (GE) Linux switch
ITworld.com ^ | 2/6/02 | Rick Perera, IDG News Service, Berlin Bureau

Posted on 02/06/2002 2:49:10 PM PST by Justa

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To: B Knotts
Whatever.
41 posted on 02/07/2002 10:46:43 AM PST by Psycho_Bunny
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To: Justa
The petition asks the Bundestag to take a stand against "monopoly positions," pointing out that Microsoft's operating system, Web browser, and e-mail programs hold a market share of over 90 percent in Germany.

Contridiction of words here. A monopoly would be 100% share.


42 posted on 02/07/2002 10:50:06 AM PST by unixfox
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To: Psycho_Bunny
Not so. When the gist of your argument can be summed up in one statement that you made, that's the ball game. No one put any words into your mouth. Remember that.
43 posted on 02/07/2002 10:50:25 AM PST by rdb3
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To: toddhisattva
I stopped reading your posts long ago because you're a close-minded anti-MS zealot and I've never seen you offer anything constructive to a thread. You’re so bent on ‘being right’ that your posts end up being screeds. You needn’t ever respond to me because it will go unread.
44 posted on 02/07/2002 10:50:33 AM PST by Psycho_Bunny
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To: unixfox
To avoid argument...

mo·nop·o·ly (m-np-l)
n. pl. mo·nop·o·lies

Exclusive control by one group of the means of producing or selling a commodity or service: “Monopoly frequently... arises from government support or from collusive agreements among individuals” (Milton Friedman).

Law. A right granted by a government giving exclusive control over a specified commercial activity to a single party.

A company or group having exclusive control over a commercial activity.

A commodity or service so controlled.

Exclusive possession or control: arrogantly claims to have a monopoly on the truth.

Something that is exclusively possessed or controlled: showed that scientific achievement is not a male monopoly.


45 posted on 02/07/2002 10:58:30 AM PST by unixfox
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To: Justa
Quite simply forget the rhetoric, Linux and/or flavors of i386 Unix are far far cheaper to own, operate and maintain. Figure it out $200 a pop for the operating system through windows MINIMAL, per machine. Linux/FreeBSD or others? Free or very nominal per machine. Plus NO OS UPDATE FEE ever... you won't be paying gates another 100-200 in 2-3 years for new OS. Hell ending cost of the paperwork to keep your licenses in compliance alone for a large organization can be a sizable savings per year.

From just a sheer cost perspective this is a great win for any government agency or private company for that matter. Windows is not going to go away, but the writing is on the wall for it to be the sole choice... IT will be slow, and steady growth for Linux as it has been, provided the project doesn't self destruct from inside, it will continue to grow.

And for the record, I trust good opensource projects far and above MS... MS's problem is not that they don't have good developers.. they do, they have some amazing people... They just are generally hogtied by marketing.

46 posted on 02/07/2002 11:00:54 AM PST by HamiltonJay
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To: Bush2000
I'm amazed at the lengths to which you people will go just to promote your college dorm operating system.

This comment alone shows the sheer lack of knowledge you hold in this industry, the sheer depth of ignorance is proven undoubtably by this statement. First off, Windows place in mission critical server market is paltry, on the desktop great.. in business the hard core machines (servers) are more often than not something other than Windows (Unix or Linux of some sort) Secondly, as a person who has first hand been involved with large corporations deploying mission critical systems on the Linux OS I can tell you that it is not a college dorm OS.

MS Server OS's are crap, they cost easily twice as much to deploy a system on, and generally require 33% to 100% more physical hardware to run sites than Linux based equivalent PC's. They are more costly to maintain, run and administer, the general calibre of administrators on the Windows OS is lower, and therefor finding a REALLY good one is much more difficult than a highly skilled SA on Unix/Linux. On the desktop for downloading poran and IMing... Windows dominates, but when you need sheer horsepower and performance and mission critical, most people do not run MS products, and for good reason, believe me.

47 posted on 02/07/2002 11:12:57 AM PST by HamiltonJay
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To: Psycho_Bunny
communist software

Linux is anything but "communist software." It allows users to take charge of their own computers. It is open for extension by any enterprising developer. It ensures the success of the best products by letting users make their own choices.

Now, Windows, on the other hand...

48 posted on 02/07/2002 11:17:35 AM PST by Smile-n-Win
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To: unixfox
Exclusive doesn't = 100% market control. Never has, never will. I don't know where you get this idea. The issue of what % of market share can = a monopoly has been affirmed by the courts for decades. As it is even a minority of a market can be considered monopolistic.

Pssst: BTW a federal judge in the anti-trust case ruled that MS was a monopoly nearly two years ago.

49 posted on 02/07/2002 11:18:00 AM PST by Justa
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To: Justa
Net is a distributed, proprietary network operating environment. Keyword: proprietary. Companies which run a MS OS will be included in the network regardless if they agree to it or even realize it. By running a MS OS they're a node of .Net. 'Nuff said.

You want want to send mail to the open source Mono folks. They're bringing .NET to a Linux box near you. Keyword: non-proprietary.
50 posted on 02/07/2002 12:01:06 PM PST by Bush2000
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To: HamiltonJay
Quite simply forget the rhetoric, Linux and/or flavors of i386 Unix are far far cheaper to own, operate and maintain.

Based on what evidence? TCO for Linux has never really been proven to be less than Windows or other brands of Unix, for that matter.
51 posted on 02/07/2002 12:03:19 PM PST by Bush2000
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To: rdb3, Justa
C'mon Bush2K! That statement of your hinges on demagoguery, don't you think?

Look, if Justa is going to feed everyone FUD about .NET, I'm going to call him on it. I'm not going to pull any punches.
52 posted on 02/07/2002 12:04:28 PM PST by Bush2000
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To: B Knotts
See above. E*TRADE is switching to Linux. Hardly a college dorm operation. You just make yourself look foolish with such childish put-downs.

I have no doubt that Linux will continue to pull down ailing dotcom accounts -- the kinds of companies and government agencies that can't seem to get their costs down by cutting unnecessary bureacracy and instead blame it on the cost of software...
53 posted on 02/07/2002 12:06:26 PM PST by Bush2000
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To: HamiltonJay
First off, Windows place in mission critical server market is paltry...

I've got news for you: Linux ain't powering mission critical servers in any significant volume. It's Solaris and other flavors of Unix that are doing the heavy lifting right now. If you think otherwise, you're deluding yourself...
54 posted on 02/07/2002 12:07:44 PM PST by Bush2000
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To: Bush2000
"You want want to send mail to the open source Mono folks."

It's appears to they're going to be porting to .Net nothing else. It makes sense actually. Like Star Office supporting MS's .doc or Linux supporting .bmps. Just so long as a PC is built on Open Source I could care less what MS code they port or add to the platform.

As for "FUD" well, you tell me then why MS is going with a dynamic, closed-source BIOS and OS comm driver for .Net, because they don't use a DOS driver anymore. Functionality? Yeah, right.

55 posted on 02/07/2002 12:13:23 PM PST by Justa
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To: Justa
It's appears to they're going to be porting to .Net nothing else. It makes sense actually. Like Star Office supporting MS's .doc or Linux supporting .bmps. Just so long as a PC is built on Open Source I could care less what MS code they port or add to the platform.See? All that whining over nothing...

As for "FUD" well, you tell me then why MS is going with a dynamic, closed-source BIOS and OS comm driver for .Net, because they don't use a DOS driver anymore. Functionality? Yeah, right.

What are you talking about? Are you having hallucinations again?
56 posted on 02/07/2002 12:23:48 PM PST by Bush2000
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To: Bush2000
I have no problem with that. But you went after the entire platform when you know fully well that it's far more than how you described it.

Just keepin' it real, my brotha.

On the strength. One.

57 posted on 02/07/2002 12:27:42 PM PST by rdb3
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To: Bush2000
If you'd read your own link you'd know that "Mono is a Ximian/Gnome Open Source Common Language Infrastructure implementation." I.e. it's an open source version of a .Net-type platform. It's not part of .Net.

As long as Mono and the PCs it runs on are based on open source software I could care less what MS code they port to or support. The issue is keeping platforms from being proprietized and therefore monopolized. Something MS excels at due to their use of closed source software.

58 posted on 02/07/2002 12:41:56 PM PST by Justa
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To: Justa
If you'd read your own link you'd know that "Mono is a Ximian/Gnome Open Source Common Language Infrastructure implementation." I.e. it's an open source version of a .Net-type platform. It's not part of .Net.

No sh*t, Sherlock. That's why you should be rejoicing...

As long as Mono and the PCs it runs on are based on open source software I could care less what MS code they port to or support.

RTFM. It does. And it is.

The issue is keeping platforms from being proprietized and therefore monopolized. Something MS excels at due to their use of closed source software.

I don't remember reading anything like that in the Constitution or Ten Commandments -- or practically anything I can remember -- other than the Communist Manifesto. You would have made a great stooge for Karl Marx.
59 posted on 02/07/2002 12:45:21 PM PST by Bush2000
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To: Bush2000
Based on what evidence? TCO for Linux has never really been proven to be less than Windows or other brands of Unix, for that matter.

Based on endless personal and second hand evidence. I've written and studied many internal reports for many firms, and Linux always beats windows hands down in terms of cost.

Its not rocket science, but here's the nutshell, Windows costs: $200 or more per license.. Linux is Free, or if you want to buy it, you can purchase versions. Even purchased copies are no more than $100, and are not limited to the number of machines they may be installed onto. (Windows 1 license per box).

Now, the hardware cost is the same regardless of OS... so you are already starting out with a $200 per machine cost savings. Now, if I am installing a cluster of 10 servers, I just saved 2k minimal.. and this is being nice with the numbers believe me. Now, To my second point, I can push more data through a server running linux than I can a PC running Windows NT or 2000, they just handle loads better and can accomplish more with the same hardware. Generally a server can perform 33%-100% better with Linux or a version of i386 Unix verses a comparative NT/2000 box. So what I can do with 10 Linux/I386 boxes will require 13-20 NT/2000 boxes So I have saved another $600-2000 right off the bat.

Now as to maintenance costs, deploying a complex mission critical application on a Windows environment traditionally takes anywhere from 25%-100% longer to accomplish. My savings here are 25% to 100% of my man hour cost. This doesn't even get into the neverending security patching that anything running on MS will require, which also all have a $ cost to perform. And lets not even get into the nefarious "BLUE SCREEN OF DEATH" issues... (stability) every time a server goes down $$ is spent, and NT/2000 reliability while far superior to the desktop versions of windows, cannot compare to Unix based systems, especially when under constant use and heavy load.

Windows has its place, and in some organizations it makes sense, but if you have a mission critical, cannot go down, high traffic high processing server, running the Windows OS is not the right decision.

Now as for my knowledge, lets just say I have built, deployed and maintained a site or two in the last 8 years, including several fortune 100's and internet upstarts. If you are going to deploy servers on the i386 platform, Linux or FreeBSD are supurb choices. Linux gets more press, but FreeBSD is solid as a ROCK! Windows is a reasonable choice depending on the organization and use, but it doesn't scale, isn't as stable and cannot perform as well in these environments.

60 posted on 02/07/2002 1:25:38 PM PST by HamiltonJay
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